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an appointment in India might obtain from the Directors a promise, but on this sort of condition: a Director would say, “You must send your son to Haileybury, and if he continue to be a very good boy (a laugh), why, at the end of two years, he may have a writership.” In the other case, the Director might say, “If your son will only undertake to pass a public examination, here is a writership for him instanter.” Now what parent, between such an alternative would hesitate at all? Would he not reply, “Do not expose me to the hazard of two years; do not ask me to stake every thing upon my son's good conduct throughout a period of two years passed in college, but give me the writership instanter.”—(Hear /) What then was to become of the institution ? This did appear to be, then, very much the same as destroying the College—not indeed by assault, but by sap—(a laugh). All these considerations must be coupled with the view that was to be taken of the question, as to the extreme inconvenience that might arise from bringing the whole matter before Parliament.—(Hear !) It seemed to him abundantly clear, that in the House of Commons there might be several Hon. Gentlemen who would be good enough to imagine that the East-India Company did not know how to manage their own affairs. (Hear, hear / from Mr. Kinnaird.) He presumed that the Hon. Gentleman himself thought so. Now he could not help thinking, under all the circumstances, that a committee chosen from among gentlemen behind the bar, was really much more likely to come to some determination in this case of a definite and beneficial nature, than a committee appointed by the House of Commons, and composed of Hon. Members, among whom, he might fairly presume, there would be many who would know nothing at all upon the subject.— (Hear, hear /) He had now to beg paron of the Court for having occupied so large a portion of their time;-(Hear!) but the vast importance of the question before them would furnish his best apology. He could assure the Court, upon his own part, and on the part of his brother Direc. tors, that if hereafter any inconvenience should arise out of an establishment which was at present in a condition of decided prosperity, they would at least endeavour to put their shoulders to the wheel, and do their utmost to effect its removal. It had been said in the course of this discussion, that the Directors had no sort of power over the College Professors; but he could not quite concur with those who made the assertion: the statute upon which it seemed to be founded was the statute in respect to the College Council, and which provided, that if any one of the Professors should misconduct himself, he might be expelled by the vote of the ColAsiatic Journ,-No. 101.

lege Council, subject to the revision of the Visitor. But in these statutes for the government of the College it was no where said, that if a Professor should improperly demean himself, as, for instance, by being proved to have been guilty of any of the minor vices, it was no where said, nor could it be contended, but that the Directors, with the sanction of the Board of Control, would have as much power to expel them as they would have to expel any other of their servants; and even if an extreme case was supposed, as that a Professor might be guilty of gross misconduct, which should not however have been contemplated by the present statutes, yet there was a power reserved by the Act of Parliament to the Court of Directors, with the assistance of the Board of Controul, to pass a new law, if it should be necessary. In saying this, however, he was only putting an extreme case: and he thought that he should be doing a great and signal injustice to that excellent body of men, the Professors, if he were to put it in any other light, after so many years passed by them in the honourable discharge of their duties in a public and private capacity.—(Hear, hear /) He was still disposed to think that the great evil of this institution was, that it was a little too collegiate; but he was afraid that it could not now be altered, and many reasons might be assigned for this opinion. The collegiate system had now existed for many ages in this kingdom, and the Company and the Government of India enjoyed so many benefits from many who had gone

... out to the East from Haileybury, that,

though undoubtedly he could not hope that his Hon. Friend (Mr. D. Kinnaird) would withdraw his motion, he would yet hope that his Hon. Friend, in the present condition of affairs, would see reason “to let well alone.” He was really satisfied that the adoption of the measure suggested by the motion would produce very considerable inconveniences indeed. (Hear, hear /)

Colonel Baillie considered it to be his duty to submit to the Court his opinion upon the important subject before them; and he would endeavour to do so with that brevity becoming a person unused to address public assemblies, and conscious of his inadequacy to do so with effect. (Hear f) The opinion which he now entertained was decidedly hostile to the proposition of the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. D. Kinnaird), though he was bound in candour to acknowledge that he had long held a different opinion. (Hear, hear /) At an early period of his life, when a member of another institution of this kind (the College of Fort William in Bengal), he thought that a system of instruction, adapted to the peculiar purposes of our Indian Government, must be exercised with a better effect under the immediate

Wol. XVII. 3 Z

superintendence of the Government by which the students were ultimately to be employed, than under any institution of this country. (Hear !). But subsequent observation and reflection had tended to alter that opinion, and to convince him that a portion of the period of tuition and probation of candidates for the civil service of the Company in India, might be occupied with greater advantage in this country, under a collegiate institution like that of Haileybury, superintended by the Executive Body of the Company; who, being thus enabled to form an accurate judgment of the comparative qualifications and conduct of the youth whom they destined for employment, and rejecting all such candidates as, from mental incapacity or moral depravity, were disqualified from entering on so momentous a trust, might consign to their governments abroad the task of still further improving, if necessary, or otherwise of immediately employing the successful candidates for their service. The grounds of this latter opinion were, first, the view which he took, differing widely from that of the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Kinnaird), of the original purpose of the institution of Haileybury College; and secondly, his recent observation of its practical results. The Hon. Proprietor, in the beginning of his address, had described, and even gratefully acknowledged the institution of the College of Haileybury, as a boon to the candidates for the civil service of India: but he had deprecated and prayed for the repeal of a certain compulsory clause, which he described as converting that boon into a penalty, and rendering the benevolent design of the Company an object of terror and alarm. Now he (Colonel Baillie) could not consider this institution as a boon, either to the youth of England or to their parents; he viewed it, on the contrary, as a boon to the millions of Indian subjects who are under the dominion of the Company, and as the pledge of their security and happimess. (Hear, hear, hear /) The real boon to our youth, is the civil service of the Company: a station far surpassing in importance, whatever could be offered to them at home. (Hear /) This boon was formerly the gift of patronage, indiscriminating, and often misapplied; it was now, by the institution of Haileybury, restricted to the deserving alone. (Hear !) A new era had thus been created in the government of our Indian empire, to the manifest advantage of the Company, and of its millions of subjects abroad. Far, however, be it from him to affirm, contrary to his own experience and knowledge, that there were not many learned and able civil and military servants of the Company in India, before the institution of either of the colleges: so there were also in England, and in every other nation of the

world, before the foundation of public seminaries of learning. (No, no.) The learning must always exist, in a certain degree, before the general want of it is felt; before measures for its extension can be adopted. (Hear!) But this was no argument against the College originally instituted at Fort William, nor against the subsequent institution at Haileybury, which were meant and calculated to extend by facilitating the acquirement of useful knowledge, and to ensure the prospective supply of able and learned servants for the administration of the Company's affairs. The College of Haileybury, he repeated, was to be considered as a boon, not to the youth of England, nor to their parents—but to the subjects of the Company in India, and as a test of those qualities and acquirements for which the civil service of the Company is the great prize or reward: a prize well worthy of the hazard, or penalty (as the Hon. Mover had termed it), which attended, and ought necessarily to attend every candidate—aye, and cvery parent of a candidate, who was desirous of obtaining such a prize. But the Hon. Mover (Mr. Kinnaird) had argued, that this test, for every salutary purpose, could be obtained by a public examination. His own (Col. Baillie's) opinion, was the opposite of the Hon. Mover's, and it was founded on a variety of considerations, which he should not trespass on the time of the Court by detailing; more especially as they had been so ably enforced on a former occasion of this debate, by a learned and eloquent Friend of his (Mr. R. Grant), whom he now saw in his place. That Hon. Proprietor had expressed his decided opinion of the superiority of the system of examination which was practised at the Col. lege of Haileybury, over that of every other college in England; and his (Col. Baillie's) experience induced him to concur in that opinion with his learned and eloquent Friend. (Hear /) But, if the proposed test were as perfect as he (Col. Ballie) considered it to be ineffective, with a reference to mental acquirements, of what avail could it be thought, with regard to the equally, if not still more important object, of ascertaining the moral character and correct habits of the youth who were destined for such high situations, for duties and trusts so momentous as those of the civil service in India: an object, attainable alone by a course of observation and experience on the part of competent and impartial judges? Was the certificate of a parent, or guardian, or of the single individual head of any ordinary seminary in England, not subjected, like that of Haileybury, to the constant superintendence and controul of the Executive Body of the Company, to be received as a sufficient security, not only for those literary acquirements, but also for those fixed principles of rectitude, those established habits of moral discipline and conduct, which form the only rational pledge for the good government of our empire, the welfare, security, and happiness of our vast population in India 2 And now of the penalty or risk, as described by the Hon. Mover, which accompanies the efficiency of the test required by the institution of Haileybury, or, to speak in more appropriate terms, as he (Col. Baillie) conceived, of the fair and moderate condition, on which the valuable prize of an appointment to the civil service of India was to be obtained by the candidates for that service. This test, so much deprecated by the Hon. Gentleman—what was it? Why, truly, the mighty sacrifice of two years, or four short terms of attendance on lectures, with decent and irrreproachable conduct, for a period of eighteen months at the college. (Hear !) Was this the grievous penalty of which the Hon. Mover complained? Was this the curse to the youth of England, and to their parents, which accompanied the blessings of good government to so many millions of our loyal subjects in the East? (Hear, hear /) Was this the source of that universal terror and alarm, which the Hon. Mover had described in such powerful and eloquent language, for the purpose of exciting our sympathy with oppressed parents and guardians, compelled to purchase for their children such low and inadequate advantages, on such high and unreasonable terms? (Hear, hear? ) For his own part, he must be pardoned when he affirmed, as he could not refrain from affirming, that this penalty was utterly imaginary, and altogether unworthy of such a name. A common tradesman in England suffered more before he hoped for employment. The lawyer, the physician, the divine, keeps terms in inns and universities, and is more liable to failure or expulsion than is any of the youth at our College. And wisely, he must be permitted to maintain, had this penalty of expulsion, in certain cases, been ordained : for whom, he would ask, did it affect? the studious? the virtuous? the talented? No: the idle, the immoral, the incapable; and should these latter, again he would ask, be sent out to govern or administer our mighty empire in India? Should our sympathy for such, or for their parents, induce us to impose them on our subjects as persons qualified to govern ? For his own part, he was as ready as any man in that Court to sympathize with the errors of youth, and with the disappointed expectations of parents; but he had a higher duty to perform, in providing for the happiness of millions, the good govern. ment of our empire in India, than any feelings of such sympathy could counter

act, or even palliate the guilt of neglecting. That duty was, in his judgment, best to be performed, that happiness alone to be secured, by preventing the employment in the civil service of the Company of any one not proved to be qualified for the high and important trusts which must necessarily be committed to him in India.

But expulsion, says the Hon. Mover, is the utter ruin of the unfortunate youth, and a source of lasting distress to the parents:—and this statement, to a certain extent, might be true, though it was certainly too highly coloured. Academic honours, and qualification for the learned professions, were the result of talent, application, and good conduct at the other public seminaries of England, as the civil service of the Company was the reward of industry and good conduct at Haileybury. The former were refused to the idle, the incapable, and the refractory, at all the colleges in the kingdom, as was the latter to the same classes in our college: but this was the only punishment, if punishment it could justly be termed, or rather the necessary consequence of voluntary and wilful failure, on the part of the candidate for our service. All other employments and occupations were open to him equally as before; the several learned professions, the army, the navy of England—nay, the army of India, also the Company's military service, with the exception only of its single scientific branch, were open to the rejected candidates at Haileybury, and had often been resorted to with success. Where, then, was the total ruin of the youth, as occasioned by expulsion from the College? and, if so, to whom but themselves, or to their parents, was this just result to be ascribed? A great deal had been said in the debate, of the contagion of idleness and vice supposed to prevail in the College, of the inherent defects in its constitution and discipline, and more especially of the tendency of some of its statutes to vitiate, instead of improving the principles and morals of youth. Those defects might be imaginary or real; that they existed in some degree, he (Col. Baillie) had never doubted nor denied. What human institution was perfect 2 Were not similar or greater defects to be found in every college in England 2 (Hear, hear /) Might not those which were peculiar to this, if there were any, might not every objectionable statute be removed by the Executive Body? (Hear /) They had already done much to improve both the system and discipline of the College; and the beneficial effects of their labours were becoming every day more apparent, in the reports of subordination and good conduct, as well as of literary proficiency, which were regularly transmitted to the Court. That much remained to be done, he was fully prepared to admit; and be trusted that the present discussion, instead of retarding or doing evil, as was feared by some Hon. Proprietors who had spoken, would, on the contrary, accelerate and promote the work of improvement in the College, to the greatest practicable extent. That portion of the Executive Body (the Committee of College) to whose especial province it belonged, would doubtless give their early attention to remedy all the defects, and repeal the objectionable statutes, particularly that of selection, regarding which so much had been justly said in condemnation, and of which he (Col. Baillie) most cordially wished the repeal. (Hear, hear !) Under all the circumstances of the case–admitting, on the one hand, some defects, but viewing on the other those advantages which were acknowledged by all to have been derived from the institution of the College at Haileybury, he could never conscientiously assent to a proposition like that before the Court, which had an obvious tendency to destroy it. That the College had done much good, he was certain; that it was capable of doing more, he believed; and that we should do much evil by destroying it, or by rendering the use of it optional, as proposed, he could not refrain from expressing the entire conviction of his mind. (Hear, hear !) Before he sat down, perhaps the gallant General (Thornton), who had just risen, would indulge him with one word more. A paper had just been put into his (Col. Baillie's) hands by an Hon. Friend near him, which contained some important information, having referenee to an argument that had been used on a former day by an Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Gahagan), respecting two cases of expulsion from Haileybury, the objects of which had been described as “living reflections on the College,” in the military service of His Majesty. Now, the two gentlemen in question, who have since their removal from Haileybury become distinguished officers in the army, have had also the candour to acknowledge that their expulsion from the College was not only necessary, but just; and had had a salutary influence on their conduct in their subsequent progress through life. Mr. Gahagan did not know in what terms the paper from which the Hon. Director had derived his information was expressed, but certainly it did not give a correct representation of the languge that he (Mr. Gahagan) had employed on a former day. (Hear!) . He did not say that the gallant individuals in question, “were living reflections on the College at Haileybury;” (hear 1) he said that they were striking proofs of the absurdity of some of its regulations. One word more : he must beg leave to deny another part of the statement which had just been made to

the Court; namely, that both those officers now considered that their expulsion was just or proper. He (Mr. Gahagan) knew one of them—indeed, he should be warranted in saying that he knew both ; and the last time he saw the officer with whom he was best acquainted, he told him (Mr. Gahagan) that he thought he had been extremely ill-used at the college. (Hear, hear /) General Thornton would, in a very few words, state his reasons for agreeing to the motion of the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Kinnaird); and he thought the arguments which had been made use of by the Hon. Director who had last addressed the Court, concurred very much with those which he should have the honour of briefly stating. The last Hon. Director had said, that it seemed to him as if it were on all hands admitted that there were some im– perfections in this College. Why, was not this a very strong argument in favour of the Court's going before Parliament on the subject? They had now been going on, with the same conviction before them, for a number of years past. What had been done? Surely the Directors had not been asleep all this time; (A laugh) and yet, if they had exerted themselves at all, it had been without effect. Now, to his (General Thornton's) apprehension, this shewed very clearly the necessity of petitioning Parliament about the business. It did seem, again, a very hard thing that any gentleman who happened not to have been educated at the college at Haileybury, but who could undergo an examination that would shew him to be fully competent to undertake an appointment in the civil service of India, should not, on account of his not having been entered of this College, be eligible to that serviceThere could be little doubt but that, to open this principle of eligibility a little more, would tend to correct all the abuses that were complained of in the College. For what would be the obvious consequence of such an alteration? Not that the students who might at present be there would leave the college; but that if gentlemen, after the other plan which had been proposed, could not really, as it had been argued, go through a public examination without being duly qualified, that would be a reason why young men at the College of Haileybury should take care to be themselves duly qualified. (Hear, hear /) The Hon. Director who spoke last had said, that the power of expulsion which these Professors might exercise had this good consequence, that it kept away the idle and the profligate. Now, if that were really the case, he (General Thornton) should be exceedingly favourable to its preservation; but he was very much afraid, on the contrary, that the consequence of the present system of mismanagement and bad regulations in this College was, that many a young man of ability and merit, was drawn into some scrape. (Hear 1) These misfortunes were generally attributable to the same cause. He hardly ever knew of a mutiny in the army that did not originate in mismanagement: perhaps every mutiny that occurred was properly to be ascribed to mismanagement somewhere. The same Hon. Gentleman had said, that similar consequences ensued upon expulsion from a college in either of the universities, that followed upon expulsion from the institution at Haileybury. But this was hardly the case; the fact was not exactly as it had been stated, for in the universities it frequently happened that if some wild young man got himself expelled from one college, he was not necessarily excluded from the chance of being admitted into another, in which case he would still remain a member of the university; but at Haileybury a sentence of expulsion shut out the unfortunate young man from all return to the College. On these grounds he should give his vote for the motion of the Hon. Proprietor. The Deputy Chairman.—Exhausted as this subject must be felt to be, after a debate of three days, he should not, in the few observations he had to address to the Court, take up much of their time. It had been said, that upon this matter the Court would do well to go before a committee of the House of Commons. Without adverting to those reasons which an Hon. Director had suggested against such a course, he would now merely put it to the Court whether a committee, appointed as they had a right to infer that it would be, appeared the proper tribunal to take cognizance of such a matter. (Hear, hear /) The question had been rather improperly stated by the Hon. and Gallant General who spoke last, for his arguments had principally referred to what had been stated upon the subject in the year 1817, under circumstances which furnished, it would be recollected, a very different case from that now before the Court. On the present occasion, a variety of objections had been urged by an Hon. Proprietor, the chief of which seemed to be the statute of selection, and that the controul of the Professors had been taken out of the hands of the Directors. Now, in reply, he (Mr. Astell) would only remind him, that it was in the power of the Court of Directors, with the approbation of the Board of Commissioners, to repeal any statute which might be considered objectionable; to make new ones where they might appear requisite; and, in all respects, to remedy whatever was defective in the present code of statutes and regulations. The system pursued at the College was not perfect, any more than that of any other institution; and no gontleman ever contended that it

was. He regretted the existence of imperfections in the College; but while he was bound to acknowledge those deficiencies, he was not disposed to agree to a proposition, the tendency of which he firmly believed (whilst he gave the Hon. Proprietor who introduced the question full credit for entertaining better motives), would be to undermine the very foundation of the institution.—(Hear 1) The cause of the frequent discussions on this subject in that Court was, the great disappointment that was felt, both by parents and students, upon the occasion of an expulsion from the College. It was natural, as every one would allow, that a failure in the progress of the students to so valuable an employment should produce great mortification, and he should always sympathize in the regret which was produced in the breasts of parents by such an unhappy event. But that Court must act upon higher motives than those which would teach them to yield unreservedly to the feelings of individuals; they must lay aside those personal considerations for the more imperative calls of duty, and inquire what system of administering their Colleges, whether at Haileybury or Fort William, would be most advantageous to their service. Much as they might be disposed to lament the situation of a disappointed family, they ought not to allow their feelings to get the better of their judgment. He owned he could not get rid of the apprehension that, if this Court once called in the interference of Parliament, they would find that that interposition would not be limited to the correction of the single case presented to their consideration, but would be extended to an inquiry that would comprehend, perhaps, the whole principle of the existence of the College. The Legislature were not bound to carry into effect the suggestions of the Court of Proprietors; and though they might repeal what was described as obnoxious by the Company, yet it by no means followed that Parliament would coincide with the Court in their view of the measure which ought to be adopted as a substitute. Therefore he thought that, upon that objection alone, he had stated sufficient to induce the Court to negative the motion. (Hear !) It was observed, that as the possession of talents and abilities was not likely to be confined to the students of the East-India College, the Court ought not to restrict the eligibility to fill their offices in India to the persons educated at that place. He was happy in knowing that genius and talents were to be found in almost every place of instruction. He would add, that he was persuaded that education could be received as beneficially under the auspices of a parent in his own home, as in a public seminary. Great talents and extensive information, he admitted, were to bo

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