A Correct Report OF THE DISCUSSION WHICH TOOK PLACE IN THE LECTURE ROOM OF THE DUBLIN INSTITUTION, BETWEEN THE REV. THOMAS MAGUIRE, AND THE REV. RICHARD T. P. POPE, ON THE 19th, 20th, 21st, 23d, 24th, and 25th of April, 1827. LONDON: PRINTED AND PUBLISHED BY W. E. ANDREWS, Chapterhouse-court, St. Paul's, AND SOLD BY ALL BOOKSELLERS, ADVERTISEMENT. The subsequent most important theological Discussion was carried on under the following arrangements:— The Meetings to be presided over by two Chairmen, one Protestant and one Roman Catholic. The discussion to be limited to three points by each party, viz. Mr. POPE.—1st, Infallibility. 2d, Purgatory. 3d, Transubstantiation. Mr. MAGUIRE.-1st, The divine right of private judgment to pronounce upon the authenticity, integrity, and canonicity of Scripture, and to determine their meaning in articles of faith. 2d. The Justification of the Reformation. 3d. The Protestant Churches do not possess that unity which forms the distinctive mark of the true Church of Christ. Not more than one point to be spoken to at a time. No new point to be spoken to by either party, until the point under consideration is fully and finally closed. The speeches and replies to be limited to half an hour, and each point to occupy but one day at most. The Meeting to be open to the Press, but a special Reporter for each party to be employed, who shall be responsible for the accuracy of the reports that shall be made of the speeches, and entire business of the discussion. No indication to be admitted of approbation or disapprobation. No person whatever to be admitted to address the meeting but the Rev. Mr. Maguire and the Rev. Mr. Pope. The parties not to exceed four speeches each during any one day; merely calling on the opposite party for proofs, not to be considered as a speech. There were other minor regulations laid down of no interest to the Public. The Publisher pledges his character for the accuracy of this Report. SE THE DISCUSSION. FIRST DAY.-April 19, 1827. SUBJECT.—The Infallibility of the Roman Catholic HE Chair having been taken by Admiral Oliver and Mr. O'Connell, ed, read by Mr. Singer, The Rev. Mr. POPE rose, and said-Gentlemen, I need scarcely remark, that we are assembled here this day, for the discussion of the most important subjects which can possibly engage the human mind. We are not assembled to debate a question relative to the politics of this passing scene--we have not come here for the purpose of discussing matters which concern us merely as the inhabitants of this lower world; but to debate topics of the most vital consequence to us as immortal and accountable beings. Let us then, in entering on this momentous discussion, divest ourselves of every party feeling, and come to the consideration of the subject before us with minds unbiassed and unprejudiced. And here it may not be uninteresting to this meeting to be put in possession of the circumstances which led to the present discussion. While in Longford, in November last, I received a letter from an individual, (whom I afterwards discovered to be a Roman Catholic of no inconsiderable information) in which it was stated, that I was challenged by a Roman Catholic Clergyman to meet him in public, for the purpose of discussing the points of difference between the Protestant and the Roman Catholic churches; and that I had then a fair opportunity of defending the principles which I maintained, and of exposing in the face of the world, the errors of the church of Rome, if any such errors existed. I considered it judicious to wait, until the challenge should reach me in an authentic form. In a day or two afterwards, I saw in the Weekly Register, of the 23d November, an account of an Aggregate Meeting at Carrick-on-Shannon, and which contained a speech made by the Rev. Mr. Maguire, in which was the following passage :"Let the advocates of such a system, the Wolffes and the Popes of the day, bring the matter to an issue, and I challenge Wolffe or Pope to meet me and answer the question of the Socinian, and prove from the principles of private judgment that he is wrong; or if they be able to answer the question in any way but that in which the Catholic church answers it, I will myself become a Biblical, and go through the country. on the same mission as they are on--but they will not, they cannot.” At a Meeting of the Hibernian Society, which took place on the following Tuesday, I commented on the Socinian question, expressed my willingness to meet Mr. Maguire, and requested that, if there were any Roman Catholics at the Meeting, they would convey my answer to Mr. Maguire. Fearing, however, that my observations might escape his notice, and being anxious that he should not be ignorant of my readiness to meet him, I addressed a letter to the Editor of the Roscommon and Leitrim Gazette, which, after treating on the subject of the Socinian controversy, concludes thus:- "And now, Sir, in conclusion, I beg leave to state, that I am ready to discuss the subject of this letter, or the Roman Catholic Controversy generally, with Mr. Maguire, or any other gentleman, believing that magna est veritas et prævalebit.' Such, then, gentlemen, was my acceptance of what I conceived to be a challenge from Mr. Maguire. Some time after, a letter appeared in the Weekly Register, from Mr. Maguire, in which he gives the following report of a part of his speech at Carrick-on-Shannon :- "I there observed," he says, "that in flippancy of tongue, tortuosity of mind, and sophistry of argument, the Bible-men stood unrivalled; but that were I to meet the arch-crusader on the arena of polemical disputation, (and this handsome compliment I intended for you) I would confine him to a few solid, stubborn objections, of which, if he gave a clear logical solution, I myself would become a Biblical, and raise my feeble voice in the loud, holy, profitable cry." Towards the conclusion of his letter, he grounds a proposal upon a concession which I could never grant, namely, "That the objection of the Socinian remains unanswered and unanswerable (the principle and practice of private interpretation alone considered)." His proposal was as follows:- "Should you have the manliness to make this necessary admission, which I must insist upon as a sine qua non, I shall afford you ampler canvass, and a rougher sea, viz. of all the charges which have been, and now can be advanced against the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church, you shall be at liberty to select whatever three you deem most glaring and untenable, whilst I, in my turn, shall bring three prime charges against the doctrines of your church, and thus we shall be both plaintiff and defendant reciprocally." In my next letter to Mr. Maguire, I observed, "It is apparent from your own report, that you either did not challenge me, or that you have retracted the challenge; the expression were I to meet the arch-crusader,' conveying most undoubtedly a very different meaning from that contained in the words, 'I challenge Wolffe or Pope to meet me,' ascribed to you in the Register. I here distinctly call upon you either publicly to confess that you did not challenge me, or to meet me for public discussion, 'Utrum horum mavis accipe.' I write strongly, but not in the spirit of polemical bravado." I shall now read to you the concluding paragraph of Mr. Maguire's last letter: declare, distinctly, that I never did invite you to a viva voce disputation; and I as distinctly declare, that I now accept your challenge, and will meet you at the Rotunda, in Dublin." He says, he never did challenge me-you, gentlemen, will judge, whether I had not reason to consider his speech reported to the Register, as containing a challenge. I again wrote to Mr. Maguire, and the result of that correspondence has been, that after an amicable arrangement of preliminaries, we are met here this day to discuss the various subjects which have been agreed upon; and I most willingly bear testimony to the good feeling which has been evinced by my reverend opponent and his friend. Permit me to say, gentlemen, that we should hail the appearance of Mr. Maguire amongst us this day, as exhibiting a noble display of inde pendent feeling and judgment. I say, it is a noble display of independent feeling-it is manly and bold in Mr. Maguire to appear here to advocate his principles; especially as it is well known that the Roman Catholic Primate of Ireland has publicly expressed his disapprobation of such a proceeding. I say, then, it is manly and bold in him, circumstanced as he is, thus to come forward and claim his privilege, as an intellectual and rational being, of thinking and acting for himself. The present meeting is certainly one of a very peculiar character, and will doubtless be regarded as a memorable event in the history of this country. We have on the one hand Dr. Curtis, the Titular Primate, expressing his disapprobation of the proceedings; but, on the other hand, has the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin interfered to prevent Mr. Maguire from attending here this day? or has the Roman Catholic Bishop of Mr. Maguire's diocess (Kilmore) taken any notice whatever of the extraordinary circumstance of one of the Clergy disobeying the wishes of the Titular Primate? Gentlemen, it appears, that neither the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, nor the Roman Catholic Bishop of Kilmore, has interposed their authority in the business. And I do say, that by their silence on the subject they have given an indirect sanction to the proceeding; for they possess the power of preventing Mr. Maguire from attending, and that power they have not exercised. I believe, I am right, in stating that there are some Roman Catholic Clergymen here this day. I hail their presence amongst us with great satisfaction, as, in my mind, by their attendance, they also give their sanction to the proceedings. With respect to the preliminaries, I have one observation to make-it regards myself-it is thought by some, that I possess a talent for declamatory speaking. Supposing this to be the case, I am by the arrangements which have been entered into, relative to the mode in which the discussion is to be conducted, precluded from availing myself of any advantage which this talent, if I possess it, might give me as it has been agreed upon that neither my reverend opponent nor myself shall be allowed to address the meeting for longer than half an hour at a time—my soarings must be contracted—my pinions must be fettered down. It is not by flights of fancy or poetical allusions that this meeting is to be swayed-argument is the only weapon that can be wielded here this day. We must be governed by the only unerring standard,-the word of God. One word to the gentlemen of the public Press—all I ask is justice—justice alike to each of us-let our principles and opinions go fairly before the world-let the world scrutinize and examine them, and then give its verdict-I shall not at present occupy more of your time. Mr. MAGUIRE rose, and spoke to the following effect :-GentlemenAs my friend, Mr. Pope, has entered into a very long narrative, touching the circumstances that have led to the present discussion, it will not be considered egotism in me, if I give you a brief sketch of them, as far as they regard myself. I happened, last November, to come to the town of Carrick-on-Shannon, on private business of importance, and I solemnly assure you, that I was not aware, until I arrived in Carrick, that a meeting of the Catholics of Leitrim was about to be held there. I was pressed by a few particular friends to remain for the meeting which was fixed for the next day; and on attending at the meeting, a |