Are the taxes judiciously and equitably laid? The latter the hon. gentleman has acknowledged; the bargain with the public creditors he has found fault with. He says, that the navy debt should be reduced. I think so; and have done all in my power to reduce it. I have paid off a million; but if more of the navy debt, 500,000l. been paid off, as the hon. gentleman has suggested ought to have been done, that sum would of course, on getting into circulation, have produced the same inconveniency now complained of. The hon. gentleman has spent a great deal of time in proving that the bargain was a very good one for the subscribers, and a very bad one for the public. It called for no long detail of facts, nor much argument, to prove how erroneous such an assertion was. He should only refer him to the market, as the most impartial evidence of the error of his calculations. Let him examine the price of stocks this day, and he will find, that instead of a profit of 10 or 5 per cent. which he supposes the subscriber will make, the hon. gentleman might purchase as much omnium as he pleased, considerably under 2 per cent. The hon. gentleman seemed much surprized what could induce him to keep so laborious an office, and carry through measures so contrary to his own judgment. The latter was a point, he presumed, the hon. gentleman could not be informed on sufficiently to speak with any degree of certainty; and as to the former, he was very willing to resign whenever a person was found ready to succeed him, who at the same time had the sanction of public approbation. But supposing that he was as ready to resign the present laborious office, as the hon. gentleman seemed desirous he should, what could be done? The great business of the nation must not stand still; and the hon. gentleman says, no person could be found who would accept it. It follows, then, that he must be obliged to keep it, till some one be found to take or accept of it. The hon. gentleman, in his general rage for finding fault, betrayed some marks of friendship; he admonished him to take care of his head, the safety of which depended, in some measure, on the event of the American war. Whatever might be the event of the war, he never expected to have it imputed to him; he indeed heard the contrary imputed to him, by persons at the same side of the House. He was certain, either assertion was equally ill-founded;

he never pressed the war in a responsible situation; he always approved of the measures, as they arose, as an individual. If innocence, founded in private opinion, was a protection, he must remain safe in this country; he did not lead parliament, but follow it; he meant to continue to do so; and whenever that House, which expressed the sense of the nation, thought proper to wish him to retire, he should do it with content and private satisfaction, in a consciousness of having discharged his duty, with truth and fidelity.

Mr. Dempster observed, that the noble lord had been now ten years at the head of the finances, and, instead of paying off any part of the national debt, he believed he had added considerably to it. When a person of his lordship's confessed talents had failed in making any progress in so desirable a work, he despaired ever to see the debt lessened: he therefore thought it would be better for money to be borrowed in such a manner, that the very nature of the loan should create a virtual fund for discharging the sum borrowed; such as borrowing sums at a proportionate increase of interest, which should cease at the end of 61 or 99 years, the interest and principal to be extinguished together. It would, in fact, be paying so much of the debt thus borrowed, every year.

Lord North said, that the matter mentioned by the hon. gentleman had been often talked of, even before the commencement of the present century: but, for his part, if any alteration were to be made, he thought it ought to be for short, not long annuities; for he believed the length of them, after a certain period, added very little to their value at market. This he instanced in the long annuities granted in the reign of queen Anne, which, after 69 years enjoyment, sold for as much as they did the first day they were granted, though they were to be extinguished in 30 years, namely, in the year 1807. Sir Robert Walpole had turned his thoughts to the subject very fully, and gave the preference of perpetuities to long annuities. For his part, he should prefer short annuities to either. It held out a pleasing prospect; and if it was a mode of extinguishing debts, it was certainly the most direct, easy, and immediate.

Colonel Barré said, he waited with astonishment for some explanations from the two noble lords (North and G. Germain) on the Treasury-bench; but had heard nothing from them on the subject of the

ble contract price; that 2s. 4d. was a prime cost price, and desired to know if a Mr. Irvin had not offered to contract for rum at 2s. 6d. And also, if the Victualling-office had not contracted for it no longer ago than last Monday at 2s. 6d? He would not hint an idea that the noble lord touched a penny of these contracts, he who certainly was capable of refusing lacks of pagodas, can never be reproached with the meanness of being concerned in the pitiful transactions of rum contracts.

state of Europe and America. The noble lord in the blue ribbon had touched slightly on the good disposition of the French court, and his hopes respecting the happy conclusion of the American troubles; but that was all. He neither explained the grounds on which his opinions were formed, nor assigned a single reason sufficient to satisfy the public, which, by every appearance of things, had a right to fear the direct contrary. There were many articles in the extra services which were not satisfactorily accounted for. One, in particular, of 400,000 He had asked the noble lord before, what it could be for; and forced out at length that it was for the military chest. He said, contracts for rum had been made at 3s. 3s. 6d. and 4s. per gallon, besides freight, which brought it to about 5s. 3d. a gallon, free of duty, to be delivered in America, and the quantity was immense. For his part, when he served in that part of the world, he never understood that there was any occasion for rum to be served to the troops as aboard a man of war; and he remembered very well, that in the back settlements, when sir Jeffery Amherst commanded there, he ordered rum to be delivered, even in those inhospitable regions, in very small quantities; assigning it as a reason, that it would spoil the soldiers.

Lord North said, he was surprized to find that the hon. gentleman had deserted the accusation he pledged himself to bring forward in the committee; and had now contented himself with calling for some trifling explanations.

Colonel Barré said, that if the noble lord meant to be at all communicative, there was ample matter for him to expatiate upon. He called on him particularly to explain the 700,000l. for provisions alone; likewise the 800,000l. for extraordinaries, of which the noble lord had hitherto only told them that that and other 400,000l. were applied for a military chest; a very laconic explanation, but such an one as he hoped would not prove satisfactory to the House: that in relation to the rum business, a Mr. Atkinson must be a very good friend of the Treasury indeed! for he has paid 35,000l. for rum, without any of the requisites of a satisfactory account; for there was not even the quantity specified which he had furnished; he understood, however, that it was at 5s. 3d. a gallon; that he had made many enquiries of planters, merchants, and others, and had found that 3s. 6d. was a very favoura

Lord North said, in reply to the contract business, that nothing could be clearer than the mode of the Exchequer, passing the accounts of those who had contracted with government; that there were always vouchers for every thing done, so that the completest satisfaction could at any time be had, as to the terms of the contract, and the due performance of those terms. That the contract with Mr. Atkinson was for rum of the very best proof, the finest that could be had in Jamaica, and in order that it might be known whether the rum was of that goodness, an instrument for ascertaining it was sent out. That Mr. Pelham, secretary to the Navy-board, had informed the Treasury, that their contract price in Jamaica was 4s. 4d. a gallon, but that in addition to this, there was freighted part to Boston at 6d., and part to Canada at 9d. which made 74d on an average. Leakage was 10 per cent. or 5d. Insurance 8 per cent. or 4d. Commission was 5 per cent. or 2d. In all 5s. 11d. Whereas the Treasury had contracted at 5s. 3d. As to Mr. Irvine having offered to contract cheaper, he knew not the fact; but no other contracts were to be made than the first, as they were now left to the commander in chief, sir William Howe.

Colonel Barré rose to hug the noble, noble lord, as he called it; upon the rum affair he was perfectly satisfied; perfectly convinced of the wondrous good economy of the noble lord, to get that at 5s. 3d., which plainly cost the contractor 6s. Why, the poor man must be ruined! It was cruel to treat him so unjustly; and he now plainly saw the reason why people of all sorts were so shy of taking government contracts. But this Mr. Atkinson must be the greatest ideot in the whole contracting world: did he make his contracts for sour crout and porter upon the same principles? But what will the noble lord say to rum, so far from 4s. 4d., being in the island no more than 1s. 9d.;

Sir James Cockburn rose to explain the circumstances of his contract for 100,000 gallons of rum from Grenada, where the current price was 2s. 1d. a gallon; that there were expences in casks, &c. which gentlemen had forgot; that to carry rum from the West Indies to Boston or Canada now was an immense expence, as they were to be freighted thither on purpose, and to come back again empty to the islands. He asserted that he freighted five ships with his contract, and one not being loaded, he filled her up with more of the same rum, to be sold at Quebec on his own account, and that sold for a higher price than what his contract gave him: he offered to produce proofs at the bar; and said, if the Treasury would give him another such contract, he would not take it; that his contract was made under the expectance of the price falling, instead of which it

rose.

Lord North said, that Mr. Pelham's account was 4s. 4d., without distinguishing whether it was currency or not; but he apprehended, that currency was meant from the certain expences he had recapitulated running so much above 5s. 3d.; but he would inform himself more particularly, and give the House every species of information they wished to have about it; as there was no contract which would not bear the closest examination.

Mr. Fox called on the House chiefly to remark, that 40 per cent. was no sort of difference in the accounts of the noble lord. Mr. Bayly said, he had an offer to make to the noble lord, which would prove a saving to the nation of full 40 per cent. He accordingly offered to serve any quantity of Jamaica rum the Treasury might contract for, at 2s. 2d. per gallon, which was just half, on an average, of the price which had been given in all the contracts already made. The current price in the rum season, in Jamaica, was from 19d. to 23d. the gallon; and therefore he should have a good profit in serving it at 2s. 2d. or 2s. 4d. at most, after paying freight, insurance, &c.

Mr. Jenkinson, lamenting partly the necessity of the war, the loss it was to the kingdom, but upholding the indispensable authority of parliament, and blaming the bad policy of some late ministers, reprobated, in the strongest terms, the Tea Act; he condemned the whole measure as im

Then turning to the Stamp Act, he said, that measure was not Mr. Grenville's; if the Act was a good one, the merit of it was not due to Mr. Grenville; if it was a bad one, the errors, or the ill policy of it, did not belong to him: the measure was not his.

Mr. Dempster remarked, that if contracts were publicly advertised to whoever would supply them cheapest, as they ought ever to be, the noble lord would not be under any difficulties in having recourse to either papers or memory.

Mr. Dunning said, that there was no clearness in this matter of the contracts; but there was one thing as clear as day, which was the noble lord's perfect ignorance of the whole transaction.

Lord George Germain rose to give satisfaction to the House, why he had in the debate of the day before said that there was a prospect of a successful end to the war in North America. It was not his custom to speak when he had nothing to say; but whenever he was called upon to give information to the House, he should always then speak with pleasure. As to the campaign, he thought he had the greatest reason to expect success from the army of general Howe being in good order, and more numerous from recruits than in the last campaign, while that of the rebels was in much worse order, and less numerous: that the fleet was also reinforced with some ships of the line, which were wanting last year; that he thought himself farther founded in his expectation from the minds of the people turning, from their experiencing the misery of anarchy, confusion, and despotism, instead of the happiness and security they enjoyed under the legal government of this country; that these emotions had operated so strongly in their minds, that very many deserters had left the rebel army, and come in to general Howe with their arms; many hundreds were coming in every day: that he had formed his opinion from the circumstances of the Congress having given up the government, confessing themselves unequal to it, and created Mr. Washington dictator of America; these circumstances, he thought, promised divisions among them. another circumstance which every day proved of yet greater importance, was, their being disappointed in their expectations of assistance from France: they had been buoyed up with that hope, and made

That