On the whole, his concessions were from reason and propriety, not from necessity; that we were in a condition to carry on the war much longer. We might raise many more men, and had many more men ready to send, for the navy was never in greater strength, the revenue very little sunk, and that he could raise the supplies for the current year, as a little time would shew; that he submitted the whole, with regard to the propriety of his past and present conduct, to the judg-which it had given with regard to taxament of the House.*

the Americans upon the affair of taxation. If any gentleman would give himself the trouble of reading that proposition, he would find not one word of it correspondent to the representation made of it by its framer. That the short account of it was, that the noble lord in that proposition assured the colonies, that when parliament had taxed them as much as they thought proper, they would tax them no more. He would vote for the present proposition, because it was much more clear and satisfactory, for necessity had forced the noble lord to speak plain.

be at in supporting and protecting them. Besides, we were giving to America such important privileges, that these, together with the natural advantages of that country with respect to the low price of labour, and the quantity of land easily obtained and cultivated, must in a course of years, draw multitudes of inhabitants from Great Britain and Ireland; and that the Acts now proposed were in fact establishing high bounties for promoting emigration, to the eternal disgrace of the legislature, and the destruction of this devoted coun try. He therefore disapproved totally of the noble lord's proposition.

But if the concession should be found ample enough, and should be found to Mr. Viner regretted that his favourite come too late, what punishment will be object of taxation could not now be had; sufficient for those who adjourned parlia- he had ever thought that a proper and a ment, in order to make a proposition of just object, and while it continued the obconcession, and then had neglected to do ject, he was clear for carrying on the war: it until France had concluded a treaty but that since this object no longer existwith the independent states of America? ed, and that America was united to a man, He said he could answer with certainty he agreed, that the sooner we could make for the truth of his information; it was no peace the better, and he was therefore light matter, and came from no contemp-ready to accede to the noble lord's propotible authority; he therefore wished that the ministry would give the House satisfaction in this interesting point, Whether they knew any thing of this treaty, and whether they had not been informed previously to the making of their proposition, of a treaty which would make that proposition as useless to the peace, as it was humiliating to the dignity of Great Britain.

Mr. Thomas Pitt spoke with the greatest firmness against the general system of the ministry; said, that the repeal of the Stamp Act was not only looked upon by the Ame ricans, but by all Europe, as a solemn relinquishment of the claim of taxation; that the fatal renewing of that claim would cost this nation 30 millions of money, besides twenty or thirty thousand lives; for he considered every American killed as a fellow-subject lost.

Mr. William Adam said, he retained his former opinion with respect to the impropriety of such terms for peace coming from this country. He argued that they would not be accepted, and that the holding forth such terms at this time, would dispirit the people and disgrace our government; that our allies would become lukewarm, and our enemies elated. He farther said, that the system now proposed, if accepted on the part of America, would, in the end, be ruinous to this country, as the contributions from thence would certainly prove inadequate to the expence we should [VOL. XIX. ]

sitions.

Governor Johnstone said, he was glad to find that people were now come to their senses, and that the noble lord had at last found a proper opportunity of declaring his opinion; that he had always said, he was sure the noble lord understood the subject of America as well as any man; and that his real opinion was against the war, and the object of the war. He hinted, that the true mode to be held out to the Americans for reconciliation, was to fund their paper in this country; and thought that the repeal of the Acts obnoxious to America, ought to be more explicit. He then entered into the question of independence, and said, he was sure it was not the original aim of the Americans, and referred the House to an hon. gentleman (sir Wm. Gordon) who knew that country.

Sir Wm. Gordon began with great good humour and wit, by rallying his hon. friend for descending to such inferior game as himself, when he had so often attacked with success, the greater game of the Treasury bench; and concluded by saying, that, in his opinion, America had always meant independence.

Sir P. J. Clerke said, he could not carry his complaisance so far as to thank the noble lord for the propositions which he had produced, because he considered it as an act of necessity, not of choice. The noble lord, indeed, had said, they should [3D]

tration, he had told the House that he came to the helm when the vessel was in danger, and he would bring her safe into harbour. The noble lord had not proved so able a navigator as he thought him

first, and lost his masts in the storm; he then began to throw all the valuable part of his cargo overboard; he had kept pumping, and pumping, and pumping ever since, and can now hardly keep the vessel above water. The noble lord had now set up some jury masts, but he would never be able to steer her safe into harbour; the passengers' security was in imminent danger; they required, and had a right to demand a better man to be put at the helm. It would be difficult for any man now to free her from the impending danger; but it was just and fair to let some other person attempt it. But to drop the metaphor: the noble lord having failed of the means of coercion, had adopted another language; his hopes now were in the natural good disposition of the people of America to this country. He did not think the noble lord was quite the proper person to gain upon their affections, or soothe them into compliance; if there was any chance yet remaining of recovering them from the power of France, and regaining their confidence, it was most likely to be effected by those people who had always shewn a good disposition towards them, and not by those who had taken every opportunity to ill-treat and abuse them, who had added insult to injury, and waded deep in their blood. If the door of conciliation was not already shut, it could be open only to such men as they had reason to think had been well inclined towards them, and on whose friendly dispositions towards them they might securely place some confidence.

be fair and equitable. Admitting them to be so, they past the severest censure on the noble lord's conduct for these three years last, as they contain a total reversal of all those Acts, and consequently declare them to have been all unfair and unequit-self to be; he carried too much sail at able. What satisfaction, then, could the noble lord give to this injured country, for the millions of money and thousands of lives which have been expended in this unequitable war? What reparation could the noble lord make to the fatherless children and widows, and a great country, which he has made desolate, and has oppressed? The noble lord had taken credit to himself for having mentioned the word conciliation' the first day of the session. He was willing to allow him more; he talked of it on the news of general Burgoyne's defeat; the noble lord was frightened, and thought it necessary to throw out some lure to keep his friends together. Unluckily for this country, the noble lord just at that time received a cordial which elevated him exceedingly; it was an offer from Manchester to raise a regiment; he raised his voice, and began to talk loud of the strength and spirit of the nation, and turned his mind to his favourite object, the prosecution of the war. The parliament was adjourned for seven weeks, and the noble lord raised an army during their absence: but he gave a bad specimen of the strength of this country; for he told us, that he could not raise 7 or 8,000 men in England, and was to get them from the highlands of Scotland. So much for the strength of the country! As to the spirit of it, he could only observe, that a good national spirit might be of infinite use to a country, well directed and well applied: but, otherwise, it would have the same effect as spirit in a blind horse; if you turn him loose, it will make him run his head against the wall, and dash his brains out. The noble lord had lately said, he had been a good friend to his country. Great men, he said, should be judged by their works, not their words. He wished to take a comparative view of the state of this country at the present time, with what it was in the time of the administration of the earl of Chatham. That noble lord had raised his country to the highest pitch of honour and glory; from the time he left administration, it has been gradually declining, and is now got to the very edge of a precipice, from which it is likely to fall, perhaps never to rise again.-Ever since the noble lord had been in adminis

Mr. Baldwin declared he had been deceived by the minister; that three years ago he had asked him whether a revenue was meant by the claim? That he was answered, it was; and upon that ground alone he had hitherto voted with the ministry.

Mr. Aubrey said, that he rose to give his assent to the noble lord's propositions, though with little hope, he confessed, of their producing any good effect; for that, whatever the Americans might suffer by the continuance of the war, he could not be persuaded they would ever be willing to receive the olive branch, when held out to them by hands so stained with the blood

mise of lord Hillsborough alone justify the Americans in declining any negociation with men, who, having thus laid the foundation of the war in perfidiousness, have built upon it with cruelty? I cannot, therefore, flatter myself with the hopes of reconciling America with the proposed Bill. Those privileges and immunities for which the Americans have ventured their lives and fortunes, they will not, now the hazard is so nearly over, trust for a moment in the hands they have just rescued them from. To what, then, does the present motion tend? Not to pacify the Americans, who will never be contented with terms, while they have reason to distrust those who offer them. No, Sir, it tends only to amuse England by a delusive prospect of reconciliation, and thereby to suspend at least the vengeance of an injured and insulted public.

[774 of their countrymen: but, as he had upon propositions now offered to us. It is true, a former occasion, been for a similar that the noble lord has, with an air of question, he thought it a duty he owed to fortitude, just assured us, that "our army consistency, to be for the one proposed by is great and powerful, and that our navy the noble lord, as the avowed object of it is great and powerful;" but would those at least was peace. The time he had just ministers who talked of nothing less than alluded to, he said, was the year 1775, unconditional submission, and bringing when he voted for the motion which was America prostrate at their feet, have vomade by an hon. gentleman (Mr. Burke) luntarily repealed those obnoxious Acts, for the repeal of the American compul- if they were not convinced, that our sory Acts. He gave his vote then from strength was inadequate to the contest? two motives; one was, his being one of And do we at this time expect, that, after those whe, from the very beginning of having resisted and baffled our utmost ef these unhappy differences, thought the forts, they will ever sheath the sword parliament of Great Britain had no right without sufficient security against the into tax the Americans while they were un-juries they have complained of being rerepresented in it; the other was, his think-peated? Will not the solemn official proing that such a repeal, solicited as it then was by the united voice of the whole continent, would have brought things back to their old state of tranquillity and confidence. The great objection then made was, the dignity of parliament. It was in vain to urge, that the best support of dignity was justice; that maxim was out of date, and unattended to. We began with condemning without first hearing, and proceeded accordingly. The consequence has been, that we are now, after an enormous waste of blood and treasure, reduced to the necessity of giving up both the dignity of parliament and the claim of taxation together. So much was clearly implied in the noble lord's proposed suspension of the compulsory Acts. But in the mean time, what have the Americans been doing? They, Sir, provoked, and rendered desperate by our unrelenting rigour, have disavowed all dependence on, and connection with, this country. They did this, likewise, at a time when their affairs wore but an unpromising aspect; when their paper currency was in the greatest discredit, their negociations at the different courts in Europe were hopeless, and our army, that had invaded their country, was not only numerous, but victorious; an army, Sir, of which the Americans seemed to think as Hannibal thought of the Romans, Quos opimus fallere et effugere est triumphus.' The balance of success, however, has since that period turned in their favour. And if we were not able to avail ourselves of their fear, I leave every man to judge, what the present ministers have to expect from their affection. That their affairs are comparatively in a prosperous condition, and ours declining, must, I think, be evident to every one from the

6

Mr. Grenville assured the House, he did not intend to trouble them, had he not been particularly adverted to by the noble lord, who denied that he had been misled or deceived; that he rose to assert again, with indignation, that he had been grossly deceived by the uniform language of government for three years past; that with regard to the present question, the noble lord had opened so little the nature of the commission, that he was hardly prepared to comment upon it, but that his ardent wish was for peace. He then referred to the hint thrown out by Mr. Fox, of the alliance between France and America, and called upon the noble lord to answer that fact, especially as the information tallied with what he himself had heard from undoubted authority. That from the same authority he knew, that a very considerable body of forces had marched, within this fortnight, from the

interior provinces of France, and that the | language held by that power was of the most offensive nature; he, therefore, insisted on having these facts answered, and concluded with reminding the House, that these were the victories promised to them, this the revenue to the landed gentlemen, and this the triumph to parliament: but assured government, that though he might differ from them, he would not hang upon any proposition which looked like peace.

Lord North at length answered, that he could not say from authority that the treaty alluded to was signed; that, indeed, it was possible, nay too probable, but not authenticated by the ambassador. His lordship's motions were; 1." That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable his Majesty to appoint Commissioners to treat, consult, and agree upon the means of quieting the Disorders now subsisting in certain of the colonies, plantations and provinces of North America. 2. That leave be given to bring in a Bill for declaring the intentions of the parliament of Great Britain, concerning the Exercise of the Right of imposing Taxes within his Majesty's colonies, provinces, and plantations, in North America." Which were agreed to without a division.

Debates in the Commons on Lord North's Conciliatory Bills.] Feb. 19. The two Conciliatory Bills were brought in and read a first; and on the following day a second time.

Feb. 23. Previous to the House going into a committee on the said Bills,

bound to resist this most unconstitutional measure, by every means in his power; that as to any difficulties which might be supposed in the execution of this mode of appointment, they had been all completely got over in the East India Bill, where, with such sufficient facility, parliament had nominated commissioners for a matter of mere executive government, and one in which no parliamentary rights or powers were at all concerned; that he hoped, as himself and the gentlemen in the late minority had given, and would give so clear a support to the conciliatory measures of the minister, late as they were adopted, the minister, on his part, would likewise act a candid part with them, and not take them in for a dangerous extension of prerogative, whilst they were joining him in an attempt to restore peace to the country.

Mr. Moysey opposed it, as taking the executive power out of the hands of the crown. He said, that to hold out to the world at this time, that parliament entertained a jealousy of the crown, was not likely to promote the good effects which were proposed by this Bill. That it would be a violent act, after having empowered the crown to carry on the war, and to make peace, if it could have been effected by the submission of America, for the legislature on a sudden to hold their hand and say, the crown shall not negociate for peace. That there was no instance of parliament taking such an appointment as this into their own hands, except in the reign of Richard the 2nd, which act was in a few years repealed in terms of reproach, as having usurped upon the royal proMr. Serjeant Adair moved, " That it be vince. That the progress of such a busian instruction to the committee on the ness in that House would be attended with Bill for appointing Commissioners, &c. the grossest inconvenience; that the House that they have power to make provision must agree or disagree among themselves for nominating the Commissioners by the upon the nomination; if they disagreed, Bill." He said, that this was no infringe that circumstance of itself would be suffi-. ment on the prerogative of the crown, this cient to shew the impropriety of 550 peowas no matter that lay within its ordinary ple coming to an election of so important a foederal capacity; it was a commission ap-nature; not to mention the inconvenience pointed by parliament, in order to treat about the rights of parliament itself, the suspending its laws, and the surrender of its rights, or of what it had always considered or had claimed as such; that for the House to give blindly such a power out of their hands, to be exercised at the mere pleasure of the crown, and by persons to them utterly unknown, was, in effect, a complete surrender of the whole constitution of this country into the hands of the King; that therefore, he thought himself

of such a dissention going over to Ame rica, or the aukwardness of a debate upon names and particular individuals. If, on the other hand, the House agreed, and took at once the nomination of the King's ministers, it would come to the same thing as if it had been left originally, to the crown, with this material difference operating to their own disadvantage; that if the appointment should be a bad one, they would preclude themselves from all right of calling the ministers to an account