Sir. William Elford admitted the fact of the depredations, and only doubted whether this would be the best mode of remedying the evil. He would not, however, object to the bringing in of the bill.

Mr. Tyrrwhit mentioned, that he merely meant to bring it in, and have it printed, with a view to circulate it, and allow it to lie over till next session.

Sir Charles Pole thought that some measure of this sort would be very useful, if i was not absolutely necessary.

Mr. Bastard gave full credit to the motives of his ho nourable friend (Mr. Fyrrwhit), but he hoped that he would take care to fix no censure on the county magistrates; and there could be no censure greater than to have justices appointed by the crown sitting along with them in managing the county business.

Admiral Harvey observed that some local jurisdiction was necessary at Plymouth dock.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer would not object to the bringing in of the bill, but hoped that neither he nor any in the house would be understood as pledged to an approbation of it. Leave given.

IRISH BUDGET.

Mr. Foster moved that the house should go into a committee of ways and means.

Mr. Foster, in the committee, after observing that he would detain the house but a very short time, briefly stated the different heads of the sums required for the service of Ireland for the year 1808, amounting in all to 9,767,000. remarking that this was a very large sum indeed for that country. To meet this he enumerated the following items: the ordinary revenue four millions eight hundred thousand pounds; the loan for Ireland contracted in England two millions seven hundred and eighty thousand pounds Irish currency; loan from the bank of Ireland, one million and a quarter; loan proposed to be raised in Ireland, seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, &c. making together the sum of 9,763,000.

With respect to the loan raised in Ireland, it had been contracted for in the three and half per cents. and at an interest not exceeding the interest of the loan raised in Great Britain, viz. 4l. 14s. 6d. per cent. The charges of interest and sinking fund on the three loans, will be per annum as follows:

180,462

In order to answer this, he would be obliged to impose new taxes; but he hoped the committee would go along with him in thinking that it would be better to raise the sum, not by a number of small taxes, but by one large one, imposed in a way that would be least felt by the commu nity in Ireland. It was well known that in Ireland, as well as in England, distillers evaded the malt duty in a considerable degree, by using raw corn instead of malt. He therefore proposed to extend to raw corn used in distillation the duties at present imposed on malt. It was also his intention to propose an additional duty on foreign spirits importe l into Ireland. These sums, together with a saving in the management of the Irish national debt, would more than cover the charges of interest and sinking fund of the three loans, viz.

Extension of the malt duties to raw corn, &c. £35,000 Duty on foreign spirits

Saving in management of the public debt

Total

22,500

7,500

365,000

There were certain arrangements dependant upon the measure now before parliament, relative to the distillation from sugar, with which he would not then trouble the committee. He then moved several resolutions correspondent to his statement, which were agreed to, after some discussion on the terms of the Irish bank loan, which were objected to by Sir J. Newport and Mr. Parnell, and defended by Mr. Foster and Mr. Perceval.

Sir John Newport inquired into the state of the collectors' balances, which had, in the course of last year, increased 60,000/ He did not attach blame to this circumstance, as he supposed it would be explained. But certainly it was proper that some explanation should be given on the subject.

Mr. Foster replied, that every regulation formerly proposed had been put in force; but, he was very sorry to say, they had not been effectual in keeping down these balances. All possible steps were taking, however, to reduce them,

and before the next meeting of parliament the object would be in a great measure accomplished.

The house resumed. Report to-morrow.

Mr. Foster then obtained leave to bring in the four following bills: a bill for better regulating the granting of permits for the conveyance of excisable goods in Ireland ; a bill for further regulating the warehousing of spirits in Ireland for exportation; a bill for regulating the collection of the duties on spirits distilled in Ireland; and a bill for regulating the collection of the malt duties in Ireland.

CURATES' BILL.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the curates' bill. On the question of the Speaker's leaving the chair,

Mr. Western in a short speech opposed the bill.

Mr. W. Wynite approved of the measure, as it went to provide an adequate income for the officiating resident clergy.

Mr. Creevey opposed the measure, on the ground that it was a direct violation of property.

Mr. Burton was a friend to the established church, and as such a friend to the principle of the bill, though there were certain of its clauses that required modification.

Mr. Lushington differed from his honourable friend, and could not consider this bill as having any tendency to violate the property-tax. The property of the clergy did not rest upon the same ground as private property.

Mr. Smith admitted, that this bill went considerably to affect the interests of the sectarists, and, though not a member of the established church, he was yet a friend to the bill.

Lord Milton was jealous of interfering with church property, but at the same time did not think that property so much freehold as of a copyhold kind, to which services were annexed, and the tenure of which depended upon the performance of such services."

Sir Francis Burdett opposed the bill as an unnecessary interference with the property of the church. He did not think the bill went at all to remedy the evils it pointed out. He objected to the policy of the legislature in circulating any opinion that weaith was necessary to render a clergyman respectable. The principle of their profession was to make honourable poverty respectable. The

[COMA catholic religion bad taken in most countries the root it hal done, because it had been disseminated by the zeal, the disinterested zeal, of is poorest order of votaries. From the litle he had observed, he did not find that in the country the wealthiest clergyman was the most respec ed. Besides, this bill did not go at all to provide for the better discharge of clerical duties. The admission of persons into the ministry in England was too indiscriminate. Why should not bishops reside in their respective sees? Their immediate care and inspection was necessary to the welfare of the church. He advised gentlemen not to be too precipitate in acceding to any interference with church property. The next step possibly might be on lay proprietors.

Mr. Minners Sutton vindicated the bishops in their discriminating care in admitting none but the most fit and proper persons to the ministry.

Mr. Wilberforce said, that it was admitted that the object of the bill was to provide for the poorest order of the clergy. This he thought a great object, and it was adequate for this object. In the great contest in which the noble lord opposite (lord Milton) and he were lately engaged, he had seen nothing on the part of the clergy but consistency and independance. The bishops, he was satisfied, would be better pleased that no option should be left with them, but that they should be imperatively called on, in every case, to give the one-fifth. This, however, would in many cases be inconvenient, if not unjust. On the whole, he thought the measure as it stood, highly conducive to the advantage of the church of England. Many gentlemen were zealous in their efforts to place the catholic religion on a respectable footing. He hoped they would not entirely slight that which they themselves professed; but would evince that the well being of the church of England was not indifferent to them. Long experience, and a careful attention to the doctrines which it inculcated, had taught him to regard that church with the highest admiration, as embracing the purest system of religion, and that most consistent with the christianfaith. The present measure had his entire support, as one greatly calculated to give strength and stability to the church of England.

Mr. Windham regarded the bill now under consideration in a very different light from the honourable gentle

man who spoke last. He conceived it to be a measure calculated to undermine and weaken, rather than to strengthen the church, which the honourable gentleman professed so much to admire. It seemed to him to be a bill calculated to sow dissention and discontent, rather than seed likely to produce good fruit. It appeared cal culated to set the curate against the rector, and the rector against the curate? It was a bill to endanger, not to benefit the church of England. He was far from deny ing that the legislature might not interfere to regulate church property as well as any other. Nobody could deny that proposition; but still it remained a question, was such interference necessary? Nobody could deny that the king held the reins of government for the benefit of his subjects. But still the talking of cashiering kings was a doctrine not to be lightly introduced, or to be acted on but in cases of the most crying necessity. In the same manner, though the legislature might have a controul over the property of the church, it was a controul to be seldom exercised, nor even to be often talked of; it being a fact that the solidity of the tenure, by which the property was held, was diminished even by the frequency of the discussion as to the right to hold it inviolate. He could not, therefore, deny the argument of gentlemen on the other side, as to the letter, but he protested against it as to the spirit. If the church itself did not see this bill to be dangerous, it was more behind its interests than usual. If it did not see in this measure a speck which would in time burst forth into a cloud, it was more insensible to its situation than he had supposed. The charch of England, he was satisfied, had more to fear from this measure than from the pope, and a full conclave of bishops, even in the zenith of their power, and before his holiness was reduced to his present abject state. He could not help, however, admiring that far-sighted talent by which the honourable gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) was enabled to smell out the dangers of popery at five hun dred miles distance, while he continued utterly insensible to all the dangers of fanaticism assailing the church of England, even at the very door! The gentlemen on the other side, however, appealed to the charity of the house, and asked if the curates, who did the business, ought not to be paid? To this he had no objection, but yet he Vol. I.-1808.

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