John. Then if fcripture plainly reprefents any to be totally evil from their birth up, it will be fufficient proof of universal de dience to God's commands, and James. Do you believe that any are ever actuated by motives perfectly void of felfifhncfs? John. I believe that all who have been "created anew in Chrift Jefus unto good works," exercise univerfal benevolence, and fo far as they have the Chriftian spirit, regard themselves, no more than their real worth in the fcale of intelligent exiftence. James. How can you determine that mankind do not by nature poffefs fome degree of this benevolence? James. If it is plainly declar ed, I will give up the point. John. That mankind are totally depraved, is evident from their hiftory, from Adam to the prefent day. Blood, cruelty, revenge, idolatry, tyranny, debauchery, ungodlinefs-with all the long catalogue of vices, have continu. ally ftained its pages. Infants give evidence of total selfishness; as foon as they are capable of action, they incline to poffefs every thing that comes within their grafp; they fhow anger and revenge in meeting the leaft repulfe, and this temper conftantly increa fes with time. It thinks all around John. I think we have reafon and experience to fhew that mankind are naturally selfish altogeth-it, is made to fubferve its interest, er; but as it is impoffible we fhould have perfect knowledge of another's heart, I think it prudent to look at the fure word of Him, who knows the inmoft receffes of every heart, and if He has plainly declared it, we are in duty bound to believe, and feel very humble before Him-that we poffefs hard hearts of unbelief. and pleasure, until taught the contrary by painful.experience.It is farther evident from every idea we have of justice, that mankind poffefs a criminal nature independent of actual tranfgreffion. We can conceive of no way wherein it can be compatible with justice to inflict the least poffible degree of pain, or punishment, on a perfectly pure, innocent, accountable being-neither can we believe it juft to inflict punishment for another's crime. Benevolence might undertake, but juftice could not require it. And God himself fays, "The fon fhall not bear the iniquity of the father," but "the wickednefs of the wicked shall be upon him." James. I acknowledge, reafon, experience and revelation, plainly fhow, that mankind are naturally felfish and wicked, but deny they are totally fo, for I believe they have ability to do good, as well as evil. John. I fully agree with you as to the ability mankind poffefs but it is not ability that we are talking about, but moral taste or difpofition. Do you believe that all mankind are alike by nature? James. I do; they must be poffeffed of propenfities which are good and evil, or altogether evilfor it is evident they are not alto-fhall not the Judge of all the earth gether good. Again! "Who ever perished being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?" Says Abraham, "Wilt thou alfo deftroy the righteous with the wicked? that be far from thee; do right?"-If the Judge of al evil from his youth”—“ and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually."Here fcripture is conclufive, and it is impoffible to evade it, as it extends to every imagination of the tho'ts, and that continually; if this representation is juft, then there were men from their youth up, altogether evil; if it proves any thing, it proves them deftitute of holiness, and of courfe totally depraved.Says the Pfalmift, "Behold I was fhapen in iniquity and in fin did my mother conceive me.", The apoftle affirms, " They are all gone out of the way, they are to gether become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one; their throat is an open fepulchre, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of afps is under their lips; whofe mouth is full of curfing and bitternefs; their feet are swift to fhed blood, deftruction and mifery are in their way, and the way of peace they have not known; there is no fear of God before their eyes." If there is no fear of God before their eyes, it is evident there is no goodness in them, for "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," fays the Pfalmift.-But let scripture be ever fo much wrested from its true the earth does right, then it follows that infants have criminal propenfities, or they would not fuffer pain, fickness, and death, neither would there be propriety in baptizing them for remiffion of fins.-Nature and revelation plainly teach, that every thing produces after its kind. After Adam became a finner, the fcriptures fay he begat children in his own likeness, which if he did, they must be fhapen in iniquity. It is proper, that every thing fhould be treated according to its nature. We treat (and with pro. priety) poifonous ferpents and harmless doves differently, though neither have done actual harm, to our knowledge. But fcripture faith, that "The wicked are eftranged from the womb, they go aftray as soon as they be born"they are faid to be "by nature children of wrath." Again: they are reprefented carnally minded, fold under fin, &c.-" the carnal mind is enmity against God, it is not fubject to his law nor indeed can be." Again: "You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and fins." It is evident these were without fpiritual life, and if they were, it follows they were totally depraved-they are faid to be deaf and blind in a moral sense. "Hear ye deaf, look blind"-" bring forth the blind that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears." The representation of having eyes and ears, and ftill being deaf and blind, implies the poffeffion of ability, but the want of a will to exercise it. Again: "Awake thou that fleepest, and arife from the dead, and Chrift fhall give thee life."-Mankind are reprefented altogether finful, without the leaft degree of good-priety in keeping up an entire difnefs, and that continually. For the imagination of man's heart is ye meaning, I think it is impoffible to evade the idea of two diftinct characters being held up to view throughout the holy volume ; which are distinguished sometimes by the holy and unholy, righteous and unrighteous, just and unjuft, children of light and children of darkness, and a variety of other phrafes. If mankind by nature poffefs the leaft degree of holinefs, there is the utmost impro tinction of characters, unless the holy are free from fin; but the be altogether fuch an one as him. felf; but his ways are not our ways. You fay it gives a degrad fcriptures are exprefs on the fubject; "he that fays he is without fin deceiveth himself, and the truth is not in him." If you attempting idea of God's works. In the to defcribe a finner poffeffed of firit inftance God created man upthe leaft degree of moral goodnefs, right, but he has fought out many you defcribe a faint; for he that inventions. But I fhall not deny hath the fpirit of Chrift, " is born that it is degrading to human na of God." Then it follows, if ture, for I conceive it the moft mankind naturally poffefs moral foul humbling doctrine of the gof. goodness, all the diftinction that pel. It brings creatures to the can in any reafon be kept up, will very footstool of fovereign mercy, be comparative degrees of good and makes them loath themselves ness and evil-as more good, lefs and repent in dust and ashes.-I good, more evil, lefs evil, &c. wish you would point out wherein but we find no fcripture to war- total depravity is inconfiftent with rant fuch ideas. If this ftatement the benevolence of the Deity. is juft, then total depravity is undeniably taught in fcripture, and we in duty are bound to believe it. James. I acknowledge the ev idence appears conclufive, if two objections can be removed. Fobn. What are they? James. Whenever I read the Bible I have a criterion by which to try my understanding. If I conceive a doctrine taught, I then weigh it by the ftandard of God's perfections, and if it does not agree with them, I then conclude I do not understand it, and give up the doctrine, and reft contented, that the fcripture on that point is above my comprehenfion; and for God to create beings totally depraved, I think is inconfiftent with his wifdom and benevolence. That is one objection: The fecond is, it gives a degrading idea of God's works, and of human nature. John. I conceive mankind poorly able in every inftance, to determine, what is, and what is not, confiftent with God's perfections; as it is impoffible for them by fearching" to find out the Almighty to perfection"; and "the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and defperately wicked," and he is prone to think God to Fames. If we are by nature to. tally depraved, we are excufable; for we are not to blame for what is natural to us; and it is inconfiftent to punish beings for what they cannot help. If we are totally depraved, it will deftroy mo. ral agency, from which it will fol low, that we do not act, but are acted upon like machines. John. I perceive you still have a very unjuft idea of total depravity. It is not like our natural features, which it is impoffible to alter; but it confifts in a heart unwilling to perform reasonable duties, which are as much within its power, as the common actions of life, and it in no way infringes on moral agency fo as to produce an inability to obey any of God's commands. But admitting your ideas juft, it does not follow that it is inconfiftent with God's per fections-for God requires no be ings to love and obey him beyond their power. If total depravity deftroys our ability to love and obey him, then we are not bound to it, by his own command; for he requires us thus to do with all the abilities we poffefs, and no moreand requires no more than we are capable of performing.-You hold that mankind are partly depraved. | him, when they poffefs ability too, If total depravity destroys moral agency, and clears from blame then as far as beings are depraved, fo far they are excufable by the fame argument; and as all fin flows from what depravity beings poffefs, they are blamelefs for all fin, and fin will ceafe to be fin; which argument if just will extend to all finful beings, and render them as innocent as the angels of light. If you have a fon, addicted to intemperance, and you inform him of the awful confequences in time and eternity, and forbid him on pain of punishment ufing spirituous liquors, and he ftill retains his propenfity and indulges freely, in full defiance of your orders, which proves his final ruin; I ask if your difobedient, intemperate fon, was not blame worthy? notwithstanding he poffeffed a ftrong propenfity; or if a thief is excufable because he inclines to fteal, or if a child is clear from blame, becaufe he poffeffes a spirit of difobedience? I think you will readily answer they are all blame worthy for their evil propenfities, which if true will make all mankind blame worthy for their depravity. If beings are not accountable, nor praise nor blameworthy for their moral taftes, then it follows, that the angels in heaven are not holy, nor praife worthy, because they naturally have a holy tafte-which will deftroy their being moral agents agreea'ble to your arguments; which is very abfurd.. James. I acknowledge that I had received wrong impreffions of your ideas of total depravity. I ever fuppofed you held it in a fenfe, which if true the deftruc tion of moral agency would inevitably follow. I now fee propriety in God's commanding men to obey VOL. IV. No. 7. as much as they do to perform common actions, though their inclination is altogether to disobey. John. The great difficulty with you, and many other honeft perfons, on this point, has arifen from general mifreprefentation of our ideas. It has been reprefented that we hold that total depravity renders mankind unable to do any thing; which, if true, would ren der them unable to perform the common actions of life; in confequence of which a universal prejudice has arifen against the doctrine. It is a very alarming doctrine to every natural man, as it renders him altogether unholy. Without holiness no one can fee the Lord in peace, is fcripture language. James. I have other objections to make to your general fystem of doctrines, but as our time is now elapfed, I will defer them till we meet again. John. It will give me pleasure to renew the converfation as foon as an opportunity fhall prefent. (End of Dialogue I.) moft finished, the kingdom of Babylon, no further notice is taken of it in prophetic vifions, but that which immediately fucceeded it, is the fubject of particular attention. This is introduced in the following manner. I lifted up mine eyes, and far, fays the prophet, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up laft. I faw the ram pushing weftward, and northward, and fouthward; fo that no beafts might ftand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. The interpretation of this part of the vifion, by the angel, enables us to give a decided explanation of it. This ram prefigured the empire of the Medes and Perfians, v. 20. The two horns typified the two kingdoms of which this empire did confift; horns in fcripture being the emblem of power and conqueft, I Kings xxii. 1. And Zedekiah, the fon of Chenaanah, made him horns of iron; and he faid, Thus faith the Lord, with thefe thou shalt push the Syrians till thou haft confumed them. One horn was higher than the other. One nation, the Perfian, became more powerful and famous than the other, the Median; and the higher, the Perfian, came up laf. For Media had been a potent and formidable kingdom, when Perfia was only an inferior province, and tributary even to Media itself; but the two kingdoms being united in Cyrus, a Perfian, and the kings being in the Perfian line, the Perfian part of the empire became more powerful and famous than the Median, and hath given denomination to the empire ever fince. Daniel had this vifion in the palace at Shufhan, which was fituated by the river Ulai, in the province of Elam, or Perfia; and he faw the ram come up out of the river, and he faw the ram pufbing wefward, for Perfia is the moft eaftern kingdom of which the fcriptures take notice. He faw the ram, pushing westward, and northward, and fouthward. He faw Cyrus and the Perfian kings, conquering Babylon, Syria, and the leffer Afia on the weft; Armenia and the adjacent kingdoms on the north; and Egypt on the fouth. And none of these beafts or kingdoms, could stand before him, nor could any fave them from his victorious arm. But he did according to his will, conquering and governing with an uncontrolable power; and became great, establishing an extenfive and powerful empire. The prophet proceeds, And as I was confidering, meditating and inquiring with myfelf what might be the import of the vifion, behold, to my furprife, an he goat came from the weft. This he goat typified the Macedonian empire, or the kingdom of the Greeks, founded by Alexander the great; the notable horn between his eyes, v. 21. reprefented the firft royal family; this he goat came from the weft, for Macedonia and Greece, were fituated on the eastern part of Europe, oppofite to the western coaft of Afia. From this region came the he goat, on the face of the whole earth, like a mighty torrent, proftrating all before him, and he touched not the ground, by the rapidity of his conquefts, being more like a bird which flew, than a beaft which walked or ran. And he came clofe to the ram-and he ran unto him in the fury of his power. And I faw him come close to the ram, and he was moved with choler againft him, |