would be captious, cavil at my words, and writhe them to another sense, I should think you were no gentle companion to talk with, except you would take my words as you perceived that I meant."

"Marry," said Master Secretary, "we should else do you plain injury and wrong."

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Master Fecknam perceiving whereunto my talk went; Why," said he, "what circumstances can you show me that should move to think of any other sense, than as the words plainly say: 'This is my body which shall be betrayed for you.""

"Sir," said I, "even the next sentence that follows: 'Do this in my remembrance.' And also by what reason you say the bread is turned into Christ's carnal body; by the same I may say, that it is turned into his mystical body. For as that saith of it, 'This is my body which shall be delivered for you:' so Paul, who spake by Christ's Spirit, saith: We being many are all but one bread, and one body, inasmuch as we are partakers of one bread.""

"Here he called one loaf, one bread," said Master Secretary.

"Yea," said I, "one loaf, or one bread, it is the same with me. 99

"But what say you," quoth Master Secretary, "of the universality, antiquity, and unity, that Master Fecknam spoke of."

"I ensure you," said I, "I think them weighty matters, and to be well considered. As for unity, the truth is, before God, I do believe it and embrace it, so it be with verity, and joined to our head Christ, and such one as Paul speaketh of, saying: 'One faith, one God, one baptism.' And for antiquity, I am also persuaded to be true that Irenæus saith: That which was first is true.' In our religion Christ's faith was first truly taught by Christ himself, by his apostles, and by many good men who from the beginning succeeded next unto them. And as for this controversy of the Sacrament, I am persuaded, that those old writers who wrote before the controversy and the usurping of the see of Rome, all agree in this truth, if they are well understood."

“I am glad to hear," said Master Secretary, "that you so well esteem the doctors of the church."

"Now, as for universality, it may have two meanings. One to understand that to be universal, which, from the

beginning in all ages, has been allowed; another to understand universality for the multitude of our age, or of any other particular age.'

"No, no," saith Master Secretary, "these three always agree, and where there is one, there are all the rest." And here he and I changed many words: and finally, to be short, in this matter we did not agree.

"There was none," quoth Master Fecknam, "before Berengarius, Wickliffe, and Huss, and now, in our days, Carolstadt, and Ecolampadius. And Carolstadt saith, Christ pointed to his own body and not to the Sacrament, and said, 'This is my body.' And Melancthon writes to one Micronius (Myconius, said I) these or like words: 'I can find no well grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the belief of our forefathers.""

Thus when he had spoken at length, with many other words, "Sir," said I, "it is certain that others before these have written of this matter. Not by the way only, as almost all the old writers, but even designedly, and their books treat of it alone, as Bertram."

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Bertram," said the Secretary: "what man was he?* who was he? how do you know?" with other questions.

"Sir," quoth I, "I have read his books: he proposes the same which is now in controversy, and answers so directly, that no man may doubt but that he affirms, that the substance of bread remains still in the Sacrament; and he wrote unto Charlemagne."

"Marry," quoth he, "mark, for there is a mistake. He wrote to Henry, and not Charles; for no author makes any such mention of Bertramus."

"Yes," quoth I, "Trithemius, in his Catalogue of illustrious writers, speaks of him. Trithemius was but of late times; but he speaks," quoth I, "of them that were of antiquity." Here, after much talk of Bertram,

"What authors have you," quoth Master Secretary, "that make the Sacrament a figure?"

"Sir," quoth I, "you know, I think, that Tertullian in plain words speaks thus: This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body.' And Gelasius saith plainly, that 'The substance of bread remains.' And Origen saith likewise, 'That which is sanctified, as touching the matter or substance, passeth away into the draught."" This when I

* See the note prefixed to the Treatise on the Lord's Supper.

had englished, Master Secretary said to me, "You know very well, as well as any man.' And here, if I would, I might have been set in a fool's paradise by his commendation of my learning, and that I was a man of much reading.' But this I would not take at his hand. He set me not up so high, but I brought myself as low again: and here was much ado.

"As for Melancthon," quoth I, "whom Master Fecknam spake of, I marvel that you allege him, for we are nearer an agreement here in England, than the opinion of Melancthon is to you. For, in this point, we all agree, that there is in the Sacrament but one material substance; and Melancthon, as I think, saith there are two.”

"You say truth," quoth Master Secretary: "Melanc thon's opinion is so. But, I pray you, you have heard that the Sacrament was in old time so reverenced, that many were forbidden to be present at the ministration thereof, Catechumens," quoth he, "and many others."

"Truth, sir" quoth I, "there were some called Hearers, some Penitents, some Catechumens, and some Energumeni,' which were commanded to depart.'

"Now," quoth he, "how can you then make but a figure or a sign of the Sacrament, as that book does, which is set forth in my lord of Canterbury's name. I think you can tell who made it, did not you make it?" And here was much murmuring of the rest, as though they would have given me the glory of the writing of that book, which yet was said by some there to contain the most heinous heresy that ever was.

"Master Secretary," quoth I, "that book was made of a great learned man, who is able to do the like again: as for me, I ensure you, be not deceived in me, I was never able to do or to write any such thing: he passes me no less than the learned master his young scholar.

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Now, here every man would have his saying, which I pass over, as not much material to tell. "But, sir," quoth I," methinks it is not charitably done, to bear the people in hand that any man doth so lightly esteem the Sacrament, as to make of it only a figure. For that 'only' makes it a bare figure without any more profit, which that book often denies, as appears most plainly to the reader."

"Yes," quoth he, "that they do."

"No, sir," quoth I, of a truth: "and as for me, I

ensure you I make no less of the Sacrament than thus-I say whosoever receives the Sacrament, he receives therewith either life or death."

"No," quoth Master Secretary," Scripture saith not so." "Sir," quoth I, “ although not in the same sound of words, yet it does in the same sense, and St. Augustine saith, in the sound of words also: for St. Paul saith: The bread which we break, is it not the partaking or fellowship of the body of Christ?' And St. Augustine says: Eat life, drink life.""

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'Then said Master Pope, "What can you make of it when you say, there is not the real body of Christ? Which I do believe: and I pray God I may never believe otherwise. How can it bring, as you say, either life or death, when Christ's body is not there?"

"Sir," quoth I, "when you hear God's word truly preached, if you believe it and abide in it, you shall and do receive life withal: and if you do not believe it, it brings unto you death: and yet Christ's body is still in heaven, and not carnal in every preacher's mouth."

"I pray you tell me," quoth he, "how can you answer to this: which shall be given for you:' Was the figure of Christ's body given for us?"

"No, sir," quoth I, "but the very body itself, whereof the Sacrament is a sacramental figure."

"How say you then," quoth he, "to the words "Which shall be given for you?

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"Forsooth," quoth I, "Tertullian's exposition makes it plain, for he saith, The body is a figure of the body.' Now add this to, Which shall be given for you,' and it agrees exceedingly well.

"In faith," quoth he, "I would give forty pounds that you were of a good opinion. For I assure you, I have heard you, and had an affection to you.'

"I thank you, Master Pope, for your heart and mind, and you know," quoth I, "I were a very fool if I would, in this matter, dissent from you, if, in my conscience, the truth did not inforce me so to do. For I know, as you may perceive, it is somewhat out of my way, if I esteemed worldly gain."

"What say you," quoth he, "to Cyprian? Does he not say plainly, The bread which the Lord delivered being changed, not according to the form, but according to the nature thereof, by the omnipotent word, is made flesh.''

"True, sir, so he says, and I answer even the same which once I preached at Paul's Cross in a sermon, for which I have been as unjustly and as untruly reported as any poor man has been. For there I, speaking of the Sacrament, and inveighing against them that esteemed it no better than a piece of bread, told even the same thing of Penitents, Hearers, Catechumens, and Energumeni, that I spake of before, and I bade them depart as unworthy to hear the mystery:" and then I said to those that are saints: "Cyprian, the martyr, shall tell you how it is that Christ calls it, saying, 'Bread is the body, meat, drink, flesh, because that unto this material substance is given the property of the thing whereof it beareth the name.' And this place I then explained as the time would then suffer, that the material substance of bread doth remain. Master Fecknam, who, as is reported to me, belied me openly as to the matter at Paul's Cross, heard all this my talk (looking as red as scarlet in his face) and answered me not one word.

"You know well, quoth Master Secretary, "that Origen and Tertullian were not catholics, but erred."

“Sir,” quoth I, "there is none of all the doctors that are holden in all points, but they are thought to have erred in some things. But yet I never heard that it was either laid to Origen's charge or to Tertullian's, that ever they were thought to have erred in this matter of the Sacrament."

"What," quoth Master Chomley, late chief justice, "doth not Christ say plainly, that it is his very flesh, and his very blood, and we must needs eat him, or we can have no life?" "Sir," quoth I, "if you will hear how St. Augustine expounds that place, you shall perceive that you are wrong." And when I began to tell St. Augustine's mind in his book of Christian Doctrine: " Yea, yea," quoth Master Secretary, "that is true, St. Augustine takes it figuratively indeed."

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Forty years ago," quoth Master Fecknam, "all were of one opinion in this matter."

"Forty years ago," quoth I, "all held that the bishop of Rome was supreme head of the universal church."

"What then?" Master Fecknam began to say, but Master Secretary said, "That was but a positive law."

"A positive law?" quoth I. "No, sir, he would not have it so for it is in his decrees, that he challenged it