and had he known that the learned sergeant's brat, which had been bandied about from session to session, was to have been taken up by government, he would have brought down that evidence, and proved that it did not bear out the view of those who supported this measure. No advantage had been pointed out that would at all warrant them in embarking on such a speculation. There was no country-not even Holland itself-in which wealth was so greatly increased, as it had done in England during the period when those laws were in operation.

Mr. Sergeant Onslow defended the bill. The gentleman who seconded the amendment, and the hon. bart. had fallen into very great mistakes with regard to these laws. They had spoken of the policy in which the usury laws originated; but let them look to the preamble of the old law, and they would find it therein stated, that to take interest at all was criminal, because it was "against a christian principle." Yet this, the early law, was what they praised as highly politic. Of course the lending of money fell into the hands of the worst of usurers, who charged not only in proportion to the risk they ran, but who charged also on account of the odium they were compelled to endure. They were told that this measure would destroy the landed interest, who at present could raise money by redeemable annuities. So they could, and so they had done; and the evidence taken before the committee proved that they paid 10, 12, 13, and even 14 per cent. This was the excellent remedy which the hon. bart. wished them to resort to. It was also said that the commercial interest would be borne down by this measure. Let them look at the evidence again, and attend also to what

had fallen from his hon. friend (Mr. Smith). It was notorious that commercial men, when in difficulties, had, to evade these laws, borrowed stock, and lost 30 per cent. by selling it. His principle was, that, like all other trades, the trade in money should be unfettered.

Mr. A. Baring said, the subject of making a change in the usury laws was, undoubtedly, one of very considerable importance. It was, however, a change which would produce no immediate effect whatever; and it was because it would not produce any effect, that the present appeared to him to be the best time for making the alteration—if for no other purpose than to remove a system of false legislation on this subject. It was, as his hon. friend had said, as improper to fix a maximum on the value of money, as on the value of any other article whatever. This was the only period, for the last half century, when parliament could safely legislate on those laws, in support of which the ingenuity of those who approved of them afforded no argument. It was stated, that notwithstanding these laws, there had been a great accumulation of money in this country. But the reason was, because those laws, with respect to capitalists and monied men, had been quite inoperative, as they were very easily evaded. It was strange that the very class which would, above all others, be benefited by the repeal of those laws-namely, the country gentlemen, should view the measure with so much apprehension. (Hear.) The interest taken in this subject by that very respectable class of men was most evident; and therefore the question ought to be discussed, in order that they might declare their sentiments, and that an endeavour should be made to

remove their apprehensions and prejudices, if possible. If, in a subsequent stage of the proceedings, those who supported the measure were not able to persuade the country gentlemen that this bill would not be injurious, but favourable to them, they might then except from its provisions all loans of money on mortgage, and repeal the law as it respected the manufacturer and merchant. If the country gentlemen pleased, they would thus be left to enjoy all the benefits of the present system, which, so far from being useful, appeared to be the greatest injury and curse they could labour under. (Hear.)

Captain Maberly, sir W. de Crespigny, and Mr. J. Martin, severally, expressed themselves in favour of the bill.

The house then divided, when the numbers were-For the bill, 120; against it, 23.-Majority for the second reading, 97.

Sir George Clerk rose to bring forward the navy estimates for the present year. The vote called for was £320,000 more than had been taken last. The hon. bart. observed, that the unsettled state of some parts of the world-the probability that the piratical depredations in the West Indies, which now had entirely ceased, would recommence if our strength were diminished-and the necessity of maintaining our independence in the Mediterranean, were reasons fully sufficient to justify the additional application to parliament.

After some remarks from Mr. Warre, Mr. Hume, and other members, the following resolutions were agreed to :

For granting £885,950, for wages for 29,000 men.

£584,350, for victuals, at the rate of 17. 11s. a man per month. £282,750, for wear and tear.

£94,000, for ordnance for the sea service.

Sir G. Clerk now proposed to move the ordinary estimates.

Feb. 23.-On the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer, the house went into a committee on the four per cent. acts. In the committee the right hon. gentleman expressed his satisfaction at being able, at so early a period of the session, to open a general view of the financial situation of the country. In time of war, a proceeding of this kind was obviously not practicable; since it was quite clear that it was impossible, at so early a period of the session of parliament, to state with any degree of precision, the extent of the effort which parliament might be called on to make, under circumstances of a hostile nature. In time of peace, however, no such difficulty, existed; and the committee would agree with him in the very great importance of having a statement of this nature made to parliament as early in the session as possible. Such a course enabled the house to watch with more vigilance-with more jealousy (and such vigilance and jealousy he would be the last man to censure or discourage)-any proposition which the government might think proper to submit to them. It also gave them an opportunity of a more attentive and detailed examination of those great branches of receipt andexpenditure which the circumstances of the country demanded. He felt, therefore, that in following the course he had taken in the last year, he should pursue that line which was, at the same time, most convenient to parliament, and most advantageous to the country. Acting, then, on that principle, and with a view to give to the committee the fullest information in his power, respecting the situation in which our

finances

Deducting this from a revenue of 57,385,000l., of which he had previously given the estimate, there would remain a surplus at the end of the year (after applying 5,134,4587. to the reduction of the debt) of 1,053,0717. making a surplus on the two years of 2,373,000l.

Having troubled the committee with this mere detail of figures without any observation, he would now proceed to state what it appeared to him essential that parliament should take into consideration when looking at these returns. In the first place, they were called on to examine the actual receipt of revenue in 1823, as compared with the estimate which he had laid before the house in the last session. He had at that time calculated that the amount of customs would be 10,500,000l. He did not think that he took a sanguine or overstrained view of the capabilities of the country, in rating the customs at that sum: he did not mean to lay before parliament an estimate which he had not every reason to believe would be fairly and truly realized to its utmost extent. But, so far from over-rating the probable amount of the customs, he had really underrated that branch of our resources. In fact, such had been the increase of our foreign commerce-such had been the immense advantages derived from that free system of trade, of which he had always been the humble advocate, and which government had manifested the utmost anxiety to adopt as fast as circumstances would permit-(hear)-and owing also to the increased facilities of consumption which were known to prevail in every part of the country, that he had now the satisfaction of stating that the revenue of customs did really produce in the fast year not less than 11,498,762/being nearly 1,000,000l.

more than he had anticipated. (Hear.) This statement, he flattered himself, would be most gratifying to all who heard him; and he would take the liberty, by and by, to state what his views for the future were. The house would thus have an opportunity of examining that course of policy which, he conceived, the government and the country had abundant reasons for continuing. (Hear.) The excise did not exhibit exactly the same result; but he should have.no difficulty whatever in satisfying the committee, that though the actual receipt of excise, in the last year, had fallen short of the estimate laid before parliament, yet that the diminution could be clearly and fairly accounted for. It could, indeed, be proved, by a reference to documents, that with respect to articles charged with excise duties, so far from there being any deficiency in their consumption during the last year, there had really been a very considerable increase. When he last year estimated the excise duties at 26,000,000 he had counted items which ought to have been omitted. The actual receipt was 25,342,8287. This difference between his estimate and the amount really received, arose from some circumstances which he did not advert to when he formed that estimate. He omitted, in the first place, to attend to the fact, that a considerable sum remained to be paid on the stock in hand when the malt duty was diminished in 1822. One payment of 1,700,000l. was then to be made, and consequently that branch of the revenue must be greater then, than it could be in the past year. In addition to that circumstance, it would be remembered, that owing to the distress which prevailed in those places where hop-cultivation was carried on, government thought it

fit to see how far a postponement of the payment of the hop-duties would relieve that pressure. The consequence of this was that instead of a hop-duty of 320,000l. being received in 1823, an arrear of only 47,000l. was paid into the excise. Besides those causes of depreciation in the amount of excise duties, a very considerable diminution was effected by another measure which passed that house in the course of last year. He had witnessed the progress of that measure with very great satisfaction, because he thought it would ultimately produce good effects-he meant the act of parliament which related to the distilleries of Ireland and Scotland. (Hear, hear.) When that alteration was contemplated last year, he had stated that it would produce a considerable diminution of the spirit duty, although he could not say precisely what the nature and extent of that reduction would be. Therefore, he had avoided making any calculation of the probable loss that would take place in this department of the revenue, when the new measure was carried into effect. It was, however, obviously impossible to make a change of this nature in so large and extensive a branch of the revenue as the duty on spirits undoubtedly was, without causing a considerable reduction in the amount collected. A diminution of duty had been followed by a certain diminution of revenue. That diminution was not so great in Ireland and Scotland, as in England. The reason of this was, that the English distiller, being doubtful of the effect of the new measure, did not like to speculate. He believed one of the great effects expected from the measure was, the total destruction of illicit distillation (hear); and he was of opinion that, hereafter, the loss annually contemplated would be less

than that which had been sustained in the past year; because he thought it would be found, not that the consumption of spirits would be increased, which was by no means a desirable object, (hear, hear), but that those spirits which would in future be consumed in Ireland and Scotland would pay the regular duty. (Hear.) And if that were the case, then there was no ground for supposing that the revenue would really suffer any loss hereafter, although there was a diminution last year. He felt it to be matter of prudence to adhere to the measure which had occasioned the loss to which he had adverted, which loss he was convinced would be fully made up at no distant period. It was owing to these three circumstances that the excise revenue of last year did not rise to the amount which he had confidently anticipated. It would, however, be seen that the diminution was occasioned by the circumstances which he had succinctly pointed out, and not by any decrease of consumption. He could truly state, that of all those articles which paid excise duty, there were, literally,very, very few indeed, the quantity sold of which did not exceed the average of preceding years. With the exception of one or two articles, the quantity of exciseable commodities consumed last year, considerably exceeded the quantity consumed in the preceding year. With respect to auctions, beer, bricks, coffee, cocoa, cider, bark, &c. there had been a considerable increase of excise. There had been a falling off in the excise on hops, which was a most fluctuating article, depending on the state of the weather, to a degree of which persons not connected with the trade in that commodity could scarcely form an idea. Last year was very unfortunate for that species of crop, and the duty was considerably

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