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Mr. Moore. The next question, please? [Laughter.] Mir. TUCK. Mr. Culver. Mr. CULVER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Moore, the purpose of these hearings is to determine whether the acts of mass violence we have experienced in our cities this summer have been planned and instigated by subversive elements. Do you have any information that you might be able to provide the committee which would indicate to the extent that subversive elements have either planned or instigated the riots that we have had this summer? Mr. MooRE. No, I don't. I read sometimes a lot of things. A recent article I thought so much of that I clipped it out and put it in a brochure that I have. It was on the decline of civilizations. Of 21 great civilizations, 19 died from moral decay and they all progressed in this sequence. Mr. CULVER. But you don't have any firsthand information that you could provide the committee based on your own personal experience that the riots this summer were either planned or instigated by subversive elements? Mr. MooRE. No. Mr. CULVER. The other purpose of the hearings is to determine if such elements have succeeded in either broadening or prolonging these riots after they have broken out. Do you have any personal firsthand information that you can make avoid. to the committee to substantiate that particular inquiry : Mr. MooRE. No, I don’t, Mr. Culver. Mr. CULVER. I wonder if you, in your own personal experience in the Negro community, have had the opportunity to discuss personally with those elements within the American Negro community who are generally considered to be either radical or subversive or Communist in their objectives in the ghetto' Have you ever had an opportunity to visit with any people that in your judgment you would personally classify as properly falling into that categorization ? - - Mr. MooRE. I stay as far away from these elements that would destroy America as I can. Mr. CULVER. You have not had a personal firsthand opportunity even to discuss with them their objectives or their tactics? Mr. MooRE. I suppose by them referring to me as Uncle Tom the v do not even care to discuss these things with me. They know that I would not take it anyway. Mr. CULver. I would just like to indulge in a selfish inquiry, Mr. Chairman, if I may at this point. As I said at the outset, I think, Mr. Moore, that your successful defense of your championship in Nova Scotia in December 1958— Mr. MooRE. In Montreal. Mr. CULVER. —in Montreal, was the most inspiring and courageous demonstration I have ever witnessed, I think, in athletic competitionI wonder if you considered that to be your most difficult fight. I know you fought all over the world for many, many years. I would be anxious to learn whether you thought that was your most challenging fight. Mr. MooRE. No. I am fighting now in the last round of the greatest fight of them all. This is the fight to help young people. I need all

the help that anybody and everybody can give me, because basically this is your fight, this is your brother's fight, this is my fight, my brother's fight, because we are all involved in youth work.

You have some youths in your family, so does everybody else. We are all directly involved in this fight.

Mr. CULVER. I certainly wish to commend you, as the other members have, Mr. Moore, for your remarkable personal contribution in this area and in this effort. I personally feel that this is the kind of determination and program which certainly will avoid the serious kind of subversive consequences ultimately that might well arise from the problems that we face in urban America. I also think that if you demonstrate the same courage that

you

did in that particular fight in this effort I would like to bet on you. I don't think you have many disciplinary problems in the ABC program.

Mr. MOORE. No, we don't.
Mr. CULVER. I also would like to ask you one last question.

What, Mr. Moore, do you consider to be the causes of these riois in cities that we have experienced this summer?

Mr. MOORE. I would feel that there has been a lack of understanding of the Negroes' so-called problem, which actually is the white man's problem, was caused by the white man. This is the truth.

And there has been so much bypassing the Negro until he has to cry out. And the people who do cry out, even in radical tones or radical overtones, they are trying to be heard, they are trying to be heard. Some people can stand a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, without uttering a cry. Some people can't. If you step on some people's toes they will yell

out. Mr. Culver. What are they crying out about specifically, Mr. Moore?

Mr. Moore. They are crying out about job opportunity more so than anything, then equal housing or equal opportunity to get housing, education. This is what they are crying out for.

First they want jobs. They have to have money in order to function.

Mr. CULVER. Do you think they need a Communist to tell them they don't have adequate housing or job opportunities in this country?

Mr. MOORE. I don't think they have to have anybody to tell them that. They know that, but they need to be heard. They do need to be heard.

Mr. CULVER. Can you think of anything that would strengthen more the Communist appeal in this country than for a continuation of the denial of those opportunities that you make reference to?

Mr. MOORE. I feel we should strengthen our forces. We should be more cohesive to understand one another's problems internally.

Mr. CULVER. Do you think the subversive elements who have as an objective the alteration of our democratic institutions and processes as we understand them would have much of an audience in the Negro ghetto if these longstanding grievances and discriminations were alleviated?

Mr. MOORE. I don't believe so. I really don't believe so.
Mr. CULVER. Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

The other question I have is this: In your excellent statement to the San Diego newspaper you say: "They should have been around in the '90s when I was coming up in St. Louis. We had no way to go," and - The young people of today think they have a hard lot."'

Then at another point in the article you state, “I've seen almost unbelievable progress made in the last handful of years."

My question to you really is: Do you suppose that this country is experiencing greater racial stress today between the races in an acute way because of the fact that some progress has in fact been made and that, as a result, the Negro community recognizes the possibilities of greater equality approximating full equality, and when you were a young man growing up during the depression it was inconceivable to ever entertain in a realistic way such a general recognition by this society?

In short, I am saying, if you are in jail and the door is locked tight and there is not a crack of light, are you likely to throw yourself against it?

Whereas in the alternative that that door is somewhat ajar-not open but ajar—and the light starts to come in, as the light started to come in in terms of America dealing responsibly with the Emancipation Proclamation by tearing down some of the barriers that existed for some years, when that door is open a crack don't you think it is then, and only then, that it is likely somebody will throw himself against the door and try to push it all the way open?

Mr. Moore. This is a question that could be answered in more ways than one, because certainly being in a room where there is no crack of light, there may be this person who is game enough to throw himself against the door in order to jar open a crack. This has to be done.

Mr. ASH BROOK. That is what you have done.
Mr. MOORE. Thank you.

And get a crack open in a sense, in hopes that somebody will stick a foot in, now that they can see the light. Now we have made unbelievable progress, and Mr. Asa Spaulding, who sits in the audience here, has done an amazing job with an insurance company and investment company. I look with high hope and honors to him and his organization.

Mr. CULVER. When you make reference, and I say this as one of your greatest sports admirers for many, many years, when you make reference to the fact that in your block, for example, you cite the fact that a lot of us made it, you cite your own case, which I think is inspiring and very exciting, but you did it through your great physical courage and determination, with your fists.

The other man you cite, Mr. Clark Terry, the outstanding musician, did it through his very remarkable artistic gifts. Both of these avenues in our society were freely available and open to a Negro at all times in American society, somewhat more open, relatively speaking, in the case of musicians today than ever before.

My question is: What are we going to do about broadening the field of opportunity for Negroes so that for some to achieve in quantity, in equality of opportunity across the whole board, the whole spectrum of life's opportunities, vocationally, professionally, how are we best going to achieve that so that success in the route to excellence is not limited to the speed of your feet, the power of your fists, and the gifts of your musical soul?

Haven't you really in effect said that some of us made it, but we made it on a very special narrow path of opportunity at that time, and now our great problem for those within your own community who don't possess comparable skills and gifts like most of us in this room have to

have a broader general opportunity. I think great progress has been made there, too. I think we should continue. In my judgment it is no surprise that the subversive elements, those who seek to destroy this Government by any conceivable way, are exploiting this opportunity, this great crisis in the society today between the races. It seems to me that we do ourselves a disservice if we do not properly acknowledge that these subversive elements would have little to prey upon if you were making the American society work well and truly fulfill the inspiring declarations of our Constitution in bringing into reality equal opportunity for every citizen. Now it seems to me that the most effective way that we can deal with the understandable danger of subversive exploitation which they are most anxious to do as you properly indicate, set black against white in this country, is to eliminate what I would personally acknowledge to be very legitimate and just frustrations and grievances. It seems to me if we put our energy and attention on this gigantic assignment, and spend less time in seeking simplistic scapegoats for the cause of these conditions in our country, that we are not only going to be well on the road to having a better society in America, but we will deal the most devastating blow possible against communism and its appo in this country. I share your belief it is in the areas of housing, jobs, and education that we have to mobilize our resources. And I think in that effort, making America work well in all its greatness, we have definitely the best opportunity to fight Communists most effectively not only in this country, but throughout the world. Mr. TUCK. I may say to the witness that the gentleman from Iowa also is quite an athlete. He is a former All-American football player. Mr. CULVER. That is very kind of you. It is a nice thing about Congress, if you ever did anything in athletics you get better every year. I can assure you if you ever went to a game in which I participated that very kind and enthusiastic caricature would hardly be appropriate. Mr. TUCK. I wish to commend the witness for the very fine, constructive work in which he is engaged and say also that his testimony is very impressive and inspiring. We thank you very much for coming today. Mr. MooRE. Thank you. Before you put me out— Mr. WATson. I would like to ask him one final question. I am sure that we have all profited by the colloquy between you and my esteemed colleague, Mr. 6. But so that we might get back on the track here, as I understand your position, your life and your program and your philosophy dictate this. Regardless of the adversity, regardless of the problems that a person might have, the solution to those problems is to be found through education, through obedience to the law, through attendance at church, and in no way is it to be found in rioting and violence in the streets of America. Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. WATson. That is your philosophy? Mr. MooRE. That is my philosophy. Mr. WATson. And that is your testimony today. Thank you, sir.

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Mr. Tuck. Do you have anything further to add ?
Mr. MOORE. Yes, sir.

I would like to close by saying that the pursuit of happiness is every man's opportunity. The pursuit of happiness. I would rather pursue happiness than be pursued by people who destroy happiness.

And ABC still has such a wide scope-you do not understand, you cannot conceive, of what is in a youngster's mind, what he wants to be.

Maybe many of you gentlemen in this very room are not doing some of the things that you have set out in your life to do when you were a little boy, or what you wanted to be. Maybe you wanted to be a great singer, something like that. Maybe you are not good at that. Well, we will give these youngsters that choice to let them name the things that they want to try to be in life.

Let them be part of that program, organize that program ABC for them. Let them be a part. Let them be the working part of this program. Let them be the cause, let them run their own program.

You quoted something a while ago when you said man set against man. This is a Biblical quote. Father will be against son, nation against nation, rumors of wars. This is in the Bible. You can find this.

These things are coming to pass. But let us hold these things off by teaching our youngsters how to get along in the harmony that every man needs in his lifetime. Let us make the resounding note. If it is the black key, let it hit loud and clean and clear. If it is the white key, let it hit loud, clean, and clear. The red key the same way, the brown key and yellow key. Let it be a resounding harmony.

Mr. ICHORD. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman.

I noticed in your statement, Mr. Moore, that you came out against a guaranteed national income, which many of our liberal friends embrace. I wonder why are you against such a program as a guaranteed national income? What is your philosophy behind that, Mr. Moore?

Mr. MOORE. Let me ask you a question. Maybe I can answer this with a question.

Well, suppose that there is a man out in the field pulling weeds, and you are up here making laws and presiding and governing things. Your work is more complex and more difficult than his. His is easy. Maybe he can pull weeds 1 hour and he will be through. You have to work all day, slaving over books and paperwork.

Do you feel that he should earn as much as you are? What I am saying is that if I can devise an idea that can cause a hundred thousand people jobs and job opportunities, why should I be salaried $40 a week, the same as a man who is pulling weeds 2 hours a day?

Mr. ICHORD. What you are saying is that all every man is entitled to regardless of his race, color, or creed is opportunity?

Mr. Moore. Equal opportunity, opportunity to develop.

Mr. Asa Spaulding, should he be making $40 a week or $100 a week that he is paying his man who is cleaning his vard? He is president of the company that he devised from his own ideas and hard work and labor? No.

Nr. ICHORD. I agree with you.
Vr: TUCK. We thank you very much.
Will you call your next witness?
Mr. MCNAMARA. Wr. Clarence Mitchell.

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