I have heard to the contrary about Chicago. Are you aware of what triggered that, where the woman was killed by the fire truck? Mr. YOUNGER. I have heard that.

You mean the riot in Chicago was planned?

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. YOUNGER. I have heard that about every riot. I have heard that about Watts and Newark and every place else. I have not seen evidence to that effect. You may have. I have not.

I have sent members of our Bureau of Investigation to personally work with other police agencies during the course of these riots to see if we could find any evidence of a pattern that might help us predict where the next riot was going to occur, and so forth.

I have never seen any evidence to the effect that any of the major riots were deliberately started or deliberately planned.

Mr. WATSON. After they erupt spontaneously, who comes in and carries the ball in order to prolong it?

Mr. YOUNGER. The people who want riots, and that includes the Communists, the haters, and the criminals. They are there as fast as they can be, in every instance.

Mr. WATSON. Can you give us any positive evidence of Communist implication?

am not trying to pin you down, but I just want to try to establish a fact here. Is or is it not?

Mr. YOUNGER. I don't know how to say it any differently than I have said it.

I think in every riot in every city in the country the local police department can identify and can provide you with the names of known Communists that appear on the scene as soon as a riot starts.

I don't have that information at present, but I have received from other police departments throughout the city that type of information, people who appeared and tried to keep the riot going, tried to prolong it, and so forth, but this is again in the nature of moving it along after it started.

Mr. WATSON. You state on page 12, "This group of extremists is very small, but seems to be growing steadily."

That is based upon factual information that you have obtained in the course of your responsibilities as district attorney and directly involved with law enforcement?

Mr. YOUNGER. Yes; although I think you could base it just on the reading of the daily newspapers, the number of extremist groups that spring up and their membership.

It used to be that the Muslims were about the only group of its kind. Now they are just one of a great many of the type of group who believe in varying degrees in black power, black supremacy, and so forth.

There are a great many Muslim-type organizations now, with larger membership. That is what I base that statement on, that they seem to be growing.

Mr. WATSON. I have one final question.

On page 13, again referring back to the extremist groups, you say, "They probably are strong enough to start a riot, but they have not started one yet."

Mr. YOUNGER. That is right.

Mr. WATSON. Factually, there is no basis for that statement. That is an assumption upon your best judgment, because I would assume, in view of your earlier answer, that you could not give me any direct involvement by Communists per se, or others, that you could not answer that positively, but yet it is a subjective determination on your part.

Mr. YOUNGER. I suppose there is a certain amount of opinion, based on all of this. Every time an investigator in any police agency conducts an investigation, and I read that investigation report and arrive at certain conclusions, I suppose it could be argued that what I was doing was forming an opinion based on that investigation.

If that is what we mean by "opinion," then it is opinion. On the other hand, we certainly made every effort in the Watts riots to see if this was the product of a conspiracy, if it was planned by the Communists, the black nationalists, or anybody else.

We have as good a local law enforcement as you will find in the country. All the facilities at our command, the sheriff's department, the local police department, our own, the attorney general's, nobody could find any evidence that it was other than a spontaneous eruption.

This is the experience that other local law enforcement agencies have had in the communities where the riots occurred last summer, if you can accept and rely on the written reports which we have received from them, and which you presumably will receive.

Mr. WATSON. Have you personally seen any riots started in the manner in which you say that you would start one, if you were of that inclination, where we brought in a white extremist and had that white extremist to appear on TV?

Mr. YOUNGER. No.

Mr. WATSON. You have not?

Mr. YOUNGER. No.

Mr. WATSON. In fact, we have found from evidence up in Cambridge and in other areas, where in fact one man is under indictment now, Carmichael or Rap Brown, for going up and inciting a riot.

I believe you would conclude that perhaps there is some evidence that, on the contrary, some of the colored extremists have precipitated a riotous condition.

Mr. YOUNGER. Oh, yes. I think one extremist is as dangerous as the other. I was just using hypothetical cases.

Mr. WATSON. That is hypothetical, but factually the only example we have is where the other extremist has precipitated a riot. That is factual, is it not?

Mr. YOUNGER. Again, it depends on what you mean by precipitated the riot. Certainly the black extremists, the Stokely Carmichaels and that brand of extremists certainly have done more talking about "blood will flow," and that sort of thing than any white extremist I have heard about.

Mr. WATSON. And I do not condone the white extremist, but I believe this condition is certainly aggravated or precipitated more by the other extremity than it is by that.

I should not like for the public to feel that this has precipitated such incitement, because to my best knowledge and on the basis of your testimony, the proposition, or the hypothetical case you have given has never happened.

Mr. YOUNGER. No. As I say, it was hypothetical in large measure. I was merely trying to make the point that while you might arouse the Negroes with the Stokely Carmichael-type speech, that if you were going to start a riot, you would want also to arouse the entire white community and get them scared and mad, and that in turn would have a spin-off.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir; but, Mr. D.A., you must admit that the part of the white person has been one of reaction, rather than one of initiating this, in every instance I have heard about.

If you can relate any instance where they have triggered it, rather than reacted, then I think the committee would like to hear it.

Mr. YOUNGER. No, I am sure that you are right. I am sure that you are right.

Mr. WATSON. That is one thing that disturbs me about all of this. You call for strict compliance with law on the part of the people, but here we find again that we are trying to place the blame, by hypothesis or otherwise, upon the white agitator.

I have no love for them at all and I have no brief for them, but again I do not want to excuse the agitator, whether he is black, white, brown, or yellow.

Mr. YOUNGER. I may have explained myself poorly. At least I failed to communicate with you what I was trying to do in this hypothetical. The great mass of the Negro community, not the Carmichaels, but the great mass of this 80 percent of the 5 to 10 percent that you need if you are going to have a real, great big, A No. 1 riot, they need something to frighten them before they will get into a mood to conduct a riot.

Ordinarily, Stokely Carmichael can run down the middle of the street in Watts, and any other place in the country, and say, "Come on, folks, let us go down and burn Whitey," and nobody will follow him. When they get mad and excited enough so that they will follow a Stokely Carmichael, then you will have a riot.

I simply was making the point that if I wanted to be sure that this great group of people would be mad and excited enough, one thing I would do would be to have a white man in the community buy up all the guns, which happened after the Watts riots.

You can start a rumor that will cause every gun dealer in town to sell out in a couple of hours. That in turn will get the great mass of the people, without which you cannot have a big riot, that will get them excited and scared.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. D.A., I close with this. Again I appreciate your testimony-it has been very helpful-but I believe you will conclude that in Watts and in every other riot that we know anything about, the white population has acted with restraint, and I believe much more restraint than I as an individual could have practiced if I had my store burned down.

Do you not agree with that?

Mr. YOUNGER. I agree completely. There was surprising restraint. I am amazed there has not been a group of white hoodlums after these riots go down in the area with shotguns and really start a war. This has been an amazing thing to me.

Mr. WATSON. If the responsibility is assessed to the white man, are we not inviting him to adopt the attitude that, since he will be blamed

for it all, and I don't want it on such a basis-"If I am going to be accused of it, then we will see whether we can take the responsibility in our hands." God forbid that that day should come.

Thank you, sir.

Mr. TUCK. Mr. Ichord?

Mr. ICHORD. Thank you.

I am sorry that I was not able to be present to hear all of your statement, Mr. Younger.

On page 21, you state, "Let us spend money wisely on true job skill training and placement and on projects like Headstart and compensatory education programs that truly speed the day when the Negro has equal educational opportunities.

I could not agree more with that statement.

You feel, then, that the true way to solve a problem of poverty is through education and training?

Mr. YOUNGER. I think so, through the long haul

Mr. ICHORD. Assuming that we have equal opportunity?

Mr. YOUNGER. Right. That is our best hope for over the long haul, is education.

Mr. ICHORD. You leave the inference that some of our poverty programs may be doing more harm than they are good.

Will you elucidate on that?

Mr. YOUNGER. Yes. To start with, I will say I hope I left more than an inference. I intended to make very plain that some of them are doing more harm than good.

I think anything we do to sustain the conviction held, justifiably by many people now, that if they cause enough trouble, we will keep pouring money indefinitely in an area, as a bribe, to use the chairman's words, except where the money we put in is related to some worthwhile program of education and job training, except for that, I think they are all harmful or potentially harmful.

I think many of the jobs created in our community and other communities under the antipoverty program were purely make-work jobs. Mr. ICHORD. You state, "In the past, after a riot occurs, we have poured money into the area; but we often spend it not to provide opportunity, but as a bribe.'

You would not say that the money we poured into Watts was used as a bribe; would you?

Mr. YOUNGER. No; but I think when we are in a position of spending money as fast as we have been spending it immediately after a riot, that we often do spend it unwisely.

I do not think that we get our money's worth out of this type of spending, under pressure, so to speak, hurrying and getting everybody happy before next summer arrives. I do not think that that makes good sense in a lot of cases.

Mr. ICHORD. So many of these conditions that exist, that contribute to a riot, do you feel that they can all be cured by governmental action? You are not saying that governmental action alone is the panacea?

Mr. YOUNGER. I sure don't. I probably have much less faith in governmental action than most people that have allocated these funds. I suspect I have much less faith in governmental action than most men in Congress.

I just do not think it is that simple. I do not think, to use the phrase

I used in here, I do not think you can make this problem go away by throwing money after it.

I do think it is going to take lots of money to do the essentials, where it is going to take a lot of money before we are going to get to the situation in this country where the average Negro child going into kindergarten is going to be as well equipped as is his white classmate to understand what is going on in school.

That is why Headstart or some type of program like Headstart is absolutely essential, because unless the child starts even, he will never catch up and you will have a dropout someplace along the line who, if not a potential troublemaker, is potentially one more name on the relief role.

Mr. ICHORD. You say it is a problem of long-range solution, you are not going to do it overnight?

Mr. YOUNGER. Right. I don't know if just giving somebody money and pretending that they are doing a worthwhile job for a few months I don't really know if that helps us any or not. It may create an attitude on the part of that individual that will make it more difficult for them to respond to a truly effective job training program.

Mr. ICHORD. I did not hear all of your statement, but I take it that you listed the inciting factors of riots as many; there are many factors that go to make up a riot.

Certainly you cannot explain it on poverty alone. For example, in your Watts riot, I think the average income of the citizens of Watts is much higher than the average income of my own congressional district.

Mr. YOUNGER. That is right, and a relatively high percentage of the people involved were employed in the Watts riots, also.

Mr. ICHORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. TUCK. Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate your testimony.
Mr. YOUNGER. Thank you again, gentlemen, for your courtesy.
Mr. Tuck. Will you call the next witness, Mr. McNamara.
Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Adrian Jones.

Mr. Tuck. Will you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JONES. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ADRIAN H. JONES

Mr. MCNAMARA. Will you state your full name and address for the record, please?

Mr. JONES. Yes, I will. My name is Adrian H. Jones. My address is 8365 East Beach Drive, Northwest, Washington, D.C.

Mr. MCNAMARA. What is the date and place of your birth, Mr. Jones?

Mr. JONES. I was born on 21 February 1918 in Roslyn, in the State of Washington.

Mr. Tuck. Does he have an extra copy of his statement?

Mr. MCNAMARA. No, sir. These will be answers to individual questions.

Will you give the committee a brief résumé of your educational background, please, Mr. Jones?